People are sheep, and I mean that in the best sense of the word. We are followers. But, as followers, that means that we are also leaders and influencers. We all must follow someone. There is much buzz on leadership in the Christian world and many conferences and books on how to lead. If you read a few of them, and I have, you can gain some insight, but you can also become confused and even intimidated! There are so many opinions and so many skills, it would take a computer to keep up!What are your thoughts on leadership? What makes a good leader? Are you one? Would you rather follow? If so, what do you look for in a leader?
Caution: I am preaching a series on leadership in the Bible. Anything you say, might end up in a sermon! :)
20 comments:
In my opinion, a good leader is definitely a servant to those who he's leading.
Also, in my opinion, if you're going to be "following" a leader, you need to just trust them (as long as you're checking anything doubtful with the Bible) and let them lead!! We all make mistakes, and God uses those mistakes to teach us. If someone is always telling you to do this or that, or that they think things would run better like this or that, the leader is being suffocated and it is difficult for him to actually LEAD!! I think this is especially true for our pastors/elders in our churches. We need to love them, support them, pray for them and let them lead. Sure, they'll make mistakes, but I do too...and I don't want someone constantly reminding me of every one of them! We need to remember to give our leaders grace.
Point #1. Everyone wants to be a leader--it looks better on the resume, I guess. I wonder how many people would sign up for a class on servanthood? But, as Jesus (and Margie) said, ""you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever whishes to become great among you shall be your servant, and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many" [Matthew 20:25-28].
Point #2. If you think you are a leader, look behind and see if there is anyone actually following you.
Point #3. A true leader will be in front of his/her 'flock,' actually doing the work, fighting the enemy, etc, not just ordering other people to do the hard stuff.
Point #4. I heard this in a sermon years ago in Times Square Church, and believe me, I have experienced 'pastors' like this--"You can't lead sheep (or people) by following behind them beating them with a stick to get them to do what you want; this will only confuse them and they will mill around in circles bleating." (This is a very bad paraphrase, by the way, but you get the idea.)
Point #5. God has appointed leaders over us, and we need to be obedient and respectful (Hebrews 13:17); you made this point in your sermon.
Point #6. (Gee, I didn't think I had to many points . . . ) We should never gossip or complain about out elders, and we are not to listen to others who do so--"Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses" [1 Timothy 5:19]. If you have a serious, Biblical concern, go directly to the source first, not to anyone else (Matthew 18:15-19).
Point #7. We should not seek to lift ourselves up, but wait for God to do so (another point you made in last week's sermon). "Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you" [James 4:10].
I love the Word of God, and I love that you preach it! Thank you so much for your service to the Lord and to Harvest.
Okay. I just listened to your week 1 sermon on Sept. 9th. Let me just start out by saying, "the straw-man is dead!" He has been cut down, run over by a lawn mower and burned over with kerosene.
You made excellent points, and I share your overall frustrations, however...let's ask the question, why are these books being written? Why is their an American/cultural emphasis on leadership?
Is it not merely a response to our observations? In our homes, in our churches and in our jobs? What we see is either no leadership or bad leadership. So people who are successful leaders write books to try and help. I know it's not that simple, and I'm not saying there are not a lot of terrible books out there.
Along the lines of your sermon, leads me to this point. An individuals spiritual gifts need to be affirmed and nurtured by the Church. We are so self-centered sinful people that we come up with Spiritual gifts inventories which to me is more like "Christian Horoscopes." Then people think that their spiritual gifts are what they want to do most. It's the same mindset we teach our children. "Jimmy, what do you want to be when you grow up? An astronaut? A fireman?"
As you pointed out in your sermon, "God chooses the leader." And the case of David makes that very clear.
With all this said, is there room for biblical exhortation on leadership? Sure there is. A lot can be said and written (and probably should be still hence your sermons) But I think I'd go a little easy on the "straw-man" because we do have leadership problems, man-issues that require biblical, Christ-honoring, God glorifying solutions.
That's my two cents. (I hope this response makes "cents" because I've been interrupted six times over the last two hours that I've tried to respond.)
--ron.
Mindy, point 4 is fascinating. Shepherds lead sheep. This isn't the way it is with all animals. That's why Jesus isn't "The Good Cowboy." !!
Ron, you are right in every thing you said. I, perhaps, laid it on too thick, but what's done is done. But, I am preaching a series on Leadership itself. The point is this: with all this swirl of information on the subject, plus the publishers desires to make money, how can we discern what leadership is all about? Answer? you'll have to listen to the sermons!
:)
Here! Hear! Preach away! We are listening. I would expect a disconnect and paradox on biblical teaching on leadership than what the world puts forth.
Switching gears a little. Plato wrote, "Allegory of a Cave" a conversation between Socrates and some other guy. He makes some interesting comments on leadership.
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/platoscave.html
The thing that I want most in a leader is consistency in their convictions. Who wants a leader that can't make up his mind?
I also agree with what has been said about a leader who stands in front of those folling, and fights the good fight. Why don't any of our Al Qaida terrorists ever ask Bin Laden why he hasn't strapped any bombs to his own chest for Allah?
The next thing I want to mention is charisma, sounds shallow I know, but a nice smile and a decent sense of humor goes a long way. I bet Jesus was one charasmatic guy, he could talk to anybody, I bet if the whole son of God thing hadn't worked out he would have made a killing as a used camel salesman.
Lastly, a leader needs the ability to find the truth and speak in a way that drowns out all the noise that is in it's way.
Colin Powell said, "Great leaders are almost always great simplifiers, who can cut through argument, debate, and doubt to offer a solution everybody can understand."
There is a quality of leadership that includes making people want to follow. Charisma is as good a word for that as anything.
As for Osama Bin Laden, I think he would be a true leader if he had a national islamic suicide bomb day. All of them could strap bombs on themselves on the same day and blow themselves up. Osama could be on pay-per-view t.v. so all his little minion could see him explode just before they push their buttons.
I don't know that I want to follow a leader who stands in front of his congragation and "bashes" someone like John Maxwell or Willow Creek Church. Both have emphasized that above everything else a good leader should lead with a Christ like example and a servant attitude. In no other way will you MOTIVATE anyone to do anything.
I think an unfair image was cast and the sermon in it's entirety seemed very condescending. Which in my modest opinion is not very motivating at all.
anonymous, I'm sorry if you feel I bashed Maxwell or Willow Creek. That wasn't my intention. However, I am more beholden to God than to consumerism in America and I know that publishers selling lots of books on leadership is fine, but it should not be what guides the church in America. The Bible should do that.
As for Willow Creek, my point was that Bill Gates is not a regenerate soul, and it is easy to confuse spiritual leadership for worldly leadership when he is sought after as a key speaker at your pastors leadership event. Now, if willow creek doesn't want to be up for public scrutiny (and by the way, I don't think they care what I think, I'm small potatoes to them), then they wouldn't seek to minister to other churches.
My job, anonymous, is to preach the word of God honestly. It would not be honest if I didn't oppose things that I thought dangerous to the flock.
However, I would also hope that adults hearing sermons would discern and test all things for themselves. If I am wrong about the dangers of consumerism, I'd like to know. As for Willow Creek being above scrutiny, I just don't buy it. Clearly, I'm not.
Not to get nit picky, but you were the one who first said you were going to bash them. Just "not 100%". If that was not your intention, then I must be confused. Of course the Bible should be what guides the church and I don't think John Maxwell would disagree either.
Your point about Willow Creek and Bill Gates, to me, seems mute. I would hope that any pastor at that leadership event would be just as smart as you, and not confuse spiritual leadership for worldly leadership. Can you speak from familiarity about what is in Bill Gates heart, or what he even had to say at Willow Creek? Also, I wonder how many people at Harvest had heard of Willow Creek before your sermon. Or, for that matter, would go to the leadership sumit. Perhaps not the best example.
Regardless, your job IS to preach the word of God honestly - and I would never say that you don't do that. I believe your hart is in the right place, but I can not just blindly follow any human. You should oppose things that are dangerous to the flock, but I suppose I failed to see the connection between your examples and Harvest.
Your job is also to help people mature in Christ and I don't see how you can do that effectivly by "bashing" people like you are the cool kid at school.
Maybe the problem is I just didn't get the true point of the sermon, was it about your very poor opinion of Willow Creek and John Maxwell, the dangers of consumerism, or was it about submitting to leadership?
I don't mean to analyze so much, maybe my expectations are too high.
Anonymous,
clearly you go to Harvest? or at least listened to the message from a distance. Either way, I'm honored.
I'd add that sometimes, an illustration or an introduction in a sermon can be overpowering and distract. Perhaps that has happened here. For that, I'll keep in mind in the future your comments so that I can be more precise.
As for precision, allow me to point out that I didn't say I wanted to "bash john maxwell" specifically. I said I wanted to slam the entire genre of leadership over-emphasis (and I do believe it is overemphasized). there is a vast difference between slamming an entire industry and slamming a particular person.
That said, Willow Creek is no stranger to Harvest. We often use their materials. We have used some of their drama materials, and currently are using their financial curriculum on Wednesday nights, and without shame. people in our church, not all, but many, do know about them.
Plus, we live in a sophisticated age as far as communication is concerned. The ministries that influence this flock are many. For example, you and I are "blogging" together. who would have thought of such a thing even a few years ago? I don't think that commenting on how to interpret what is in the popular Christian culture is out of bounds. Indeed, I feel responsible to do so.
As for John Maxwell, he has published many books on leadership. Have you seen how many? I am not knocking him, but commenting on the proliferation of his books and ministry in this area. I do think if you find it necessary to consume all those books on leadership you will be out of balance. why do I think this? because of the leadership principles that are gleaned from the scripture. so I want to provide the balance, or the prism of the word of God by which we interpret things.
as for willow creek, they put out many things and they mail things to us all the time. they offer themselves as a leader of churches, not just of their own congregations. commenting on their ministry as a whole doesn't seem out of bounds either. I want to build thinking Christians.
I can't help but think that our culture affects the way I am heard. our culture is one where all ideas are to be received and not disputed. but the Christian church, from the beginning, has required interaction between ideas and teachers in order to keep us on target.
One other note, if I may be so bold, but as far as I can tell, nothing I have said about Maxwell personally (and I have said nothing personal about any personality at Willow Creek) rises, in my mind, the freedom you seem to have in "bashing" me.
For example:
Y"our job is also to help people mature in Christ and I don't see how you can do that effectivly by "bashing" people like you are the cool kid at school."
It hard to take the "like you are the cool kid at school" as anything but pejorative. It is certainly not validating. So we see that in a public forum, you are engaging in rougher language than I am. I like John Maxwell and have never spoken ill of him personally. Just commenting on the industry and the cultural trends. Yes, that implicates him, but in the bounds of public discourse, which is where he operates. I certainly didn't accuse him of being "childish" or like "school kid."
I'm not offended.Don't misunderstand. I'm pointing out that you hold me to a standard that you don't live up to yourself.
All that said, I want you to know I will think hard about your comments and try to improve my preaching because of it.
Furthermore, I want you to know that I love you and want what is good for you only. If you have found me too abrasive, blame it on me, and not the Lord. In the end, we are all beggars, and He is the only One who is perfect.
Grace to you.
Oh, Anon, one more thing.
Yes, I do want to warn people about consumerism.
And no, the sermon wasn't on submitting to leadership. The point was the God calls the leaders, they are not self-made (because they read books or went to seminars and became experts). submission was just an application pointed added on to the end.
sorry, I forget to respond to those questions.
in His Grip,
mike
Oh, Anon, I'm sorry. One more thing. I should have ready your original more carefully! :)
No, I don't know what it is in Bill Gate's hearts. But, if he is a Christian, he hasn't revealed that. So, I assume he isn't one. Furthermore, if he is not a Christian, than God has not yet called him to be a spiritual teacher. As a pastor of a church invited to this summit (many times and in many ways), I'm not sure why I would spend money to hear unregenerate people teach on Christian leadership. So I didn't go.
But, frankly, I am disturbed by the trend. Why would the largest church in America be confusing their people like that? Especially when what they do influences what thousands of other churches do? And why doesn't it bother you? Willow Creek is not some country church that keeps to itself. They are strong influencers of the direction of Christianity in America. They will influence Christians in PA now and in the future, directly and indirectly.
I'm not better than Bill Gates, of course. "no good thing dwells in me, that is in my flesh."
And finally, (I am rereading your original comment and before I get to the bottom, I realize there are issues you raised that I didn't speak to that I'd like to! sorry for the verbosity. As for the time and I'll explain how a clock works! :) )
Thank you for telling me that I do teach the truth of the Bible. Then I am a success.
As for your blindly following me as a leader, my word, who ever suggested such a thing!! Not me, that's for sure! I'm responsible to God for what I teach, but you are responsible to God for what you ingest.
I'm not looking for you to be a blind follower or anyone. In fact, I'm not looking for any followers nor any following. I don't want to be a leader of anyone. If tomorrow, the people of my church ran me out of town, I'd be disappointed, but it wouldn't crush my dreams or goals, but my goals and dreams do not include gaining followers. All I want to do is preach and teach. I'd like people to teach and preach to, but the number is not up to me, but God.
So, please, don't be a blind follower of me. In fact, don't be a follower of me at all. Paul said, "imitate me as I imitate Jesus." I can say no more. And, for that matter, I will imitate you when you follow Him, also.
Peace. (did I spell imitate right?)
last of all, (I never quit do I? pathetic!)
I wouldn't say your expectations are too high, but they are if you are looking for any man to reach such a level of perfection. No man who preaches won't say things that will seem odd to you at times. I know the same is true of me. I listen to many sermons every month, and sometimes, my favorite preachers say things I think are off, a little wrong, or even rude. I'm not surprised. they are men, not gods. There is only One who is perfect. I'll do my best to serve you without causing you trouble, but I know I will fail from time to time. I pray your mercy.
shalom.
this time I'm done!
Thanks for clearing some things up a bit. Communicating in this manner is ambiguous at best. I have been to Harvest so I have seen first hand that you are a passionate man. Not sure if I want it to be my home church, though.
I never meant to say that you were childish, but rather the tone seemed chilidish. Which is what concerns me, because I have heard it in sermons before, and because many people will act like lemmings. John Maxwell and Willow Creek aside, the tone is what bothered me. So, if I seemed disapproving it's because I am and I am allowed to be. If it was too harsh I appologize.
I understand that no one is perfect and I was not trying to say that you should be. The way you spelled Y"our implies that it is also my job to help people mature in Christ. I don't deny that, but I have also not made it my career and I need tons of help too. I presume more so than a pastor.
I used the term blind follower because 'following the leader' is your title. I am smart enough to have a handle on the dangers of being a follower of a pastor. I never imagined it would be read into that much. But blogging can be hazy.
As far as consumerism, have not Beth Moore, Billy Graham, and James Dobson (amoung others) also written scores of books? To be clear, I am NOT comparing them to anyone, just trying to be a thinking Christian.
I don't understand, 'anonymous', if you are so unhappy with Pastor Mike's preaching, then why are you at Harvest, or listening on the internet?(whichever you do) There are plenty of churches out there that will tell you what you want to hear and sugar coat it just fine. Pastor Mike isn't content to let us just warm a seat on Sunday, he encourages us to actually think for ourselves and I appreciate that SOOOO much! I do not think he wants us to follow after him like mindless people, rather I think he is trying to point us to Jesus...and I think he is doing an awesome job at that! Just because he didn't say what you wanted him to say or he doesn't act how you think he should act....SO WHAT???!! He is human and God made him unique like you or I. Don't try to put him in a mold like every other pastor preaching on Sunday morning. Pastor Mike, your sermons on leadership have been awesome and you are the best teacher Harvest has had...in my opinion. And I don't know how to do this commenting thing but I'm trying so if I mess it up I am sorry. I clicked 'other' but I don't have a user name or web page to fill in so I don't know how it will turn out.
Anon, the Y" was a typo! :) I don't even know what it might mean if it wasn't!
It's okay if you don't want to call Harvest your home church. You are a follower of Christ and so I am your brother (and you are my brother or sister), and you are free to speak your mind.
No need to apologize. I wasn't at all offended. Really. Just pointing out how it came across. I realize that this is really not personal, and I appreciate you speaking up.
I guess a childish tone is something I cannot really defend. I don't intend to be. I'm not sure what to make of that. Perhaps I was. Or, perhaps it was you? I don't know. I'll just plead the fifth on that.
Consumerism in Christian publishing is a subject that I am passionate about. Why? because Americans trust what they buy. it's the way we are. But book stores and publishers are concerned FIRST about what sells. I believe that Christian publishers hold a great deal of sway over the church. For example, if you look at the top ten list of books or the marketing of Christian books, you will rarely see God's priorities. IF you did, there'd be a bigger missions section, and lots more on discipling. INstead, we are treated to our best life now, woman thou art loosed, and, yes, leadership ad nauseum. You must understand, the issue here is not the individual authors but the system, the industry, and the American Christian. The church leaders should re-arrange the priorities of what is found in the bookstore.
Books are good. I buy them. I read them. I read old ones and new ones. I also devour Christian info on the net. But to be discipled by Christian media is a mistake. the priorities must be set by the elders of the churches. so, yes, to speak of what is true and right is necessary, but so is to point out what is out of kilter. I will do so unless God, the Bible, and reason convince me otherwise.
YEs, Beth Moore does sell books. I have to admit, I trust her. I have looked into what she teaches and I'm sure that if the people of Harvest consume what she is teaching, they won't get messed up.
Again, the issue is not the author, it is the world in which we live. As Americans we simply receive what we see at the Christian bookstore as important and in line with the Spirit of God. I'm saying that to do so is risky. You must stop, look at the big picture and say,"What is going on here?"
I do that on the subject of leadership.
You know, I have never been able to enjoy John MacArthur as a teacher. Why? I don't know, really. I like him and he seems to do a good job and all. But his tone always struck me as abrasive. I've been to his church a couple of times and thought, "I wonder what's wrong with me. all these people seem to really get into this guy." The same used to be true of Swindoll --but that was till I saw him preach instead of just heard him on the radio. something about him just struck me wrong. Now, I think he's great.
Maybe there is just something about my tone you find annoying. I'm sorry. Perhaps we can talk face to face sometime. I think you'll find I'm more approachable and even "normal" than I might appear from the pulpit.
Anyway. God bless you.
mike
To the other anonymous: you just proved my point about people being lemmings. I am doing just what you said Mike wants his congragation to do - not just warming a seat and think for myself. I didn't like the sermon and I have a right to that opinion, as well as, a right to comment about it. Does it mean that I will NOT choose Harvest over one sermon - NO.
If Pastor Mike didn't appreciate a good debate, he wouldn't be a blogger and state that he was opinionated. I share that in common with him. I am not putting him down, he asked for opinions - I gave mine. Maybe it isn't the same as your opinion and I didn't say what you wanted to hear - SO WHAT???!! By the way where is the line drawn between not sugar coating and just being rude? I don't believe things should be all happy go lucky, but it doesn't need to sound rude either. If you read my comments clearly, you would realize that I never said Pastor Mike wants people to blindly follow him - in fact I complimented him on preaching from the Bible. I would like to advise you though, that a church is more than just a pastor and I would never pick Harvest over Pastor Mike alone.
Pastor Mike: it seems we may actually have something in common after all. I am sorry, I didn't intend to come across so harshly. After reading my comments again I can see how some things sounded - let's just say not how I wanted them to sound.
Anon 2, I appreciate your kind words for me and can see your heart through it. Thanks you. In this case, though, it might help to know that I really am not upset by the conversation I've been having with Anon 1. In fact, I like that chance to clarify things and discuss them.
you are free to enter in with your questions too of course, but I want to say explicitly that I'm in a good mood about this whole discussion and I don't think anything said has been out of bounds, just honest thoughts expressed like humans do. Yours are too, so thanks.
Anon 1, again, my brother or sister, no need to apologize. I think I understood what you were saying right from the start. I have a very good friend who told me that I had set up a straw man and then torn it down in the intro to that sermon (see "mrpapisir's" comment). Communication is hard work. When someone who knows me as well as that friend does calls me out, maybe I was either a) too wreckless in my thinking or b) unclear with my words. either is possible.
God bless to both of you. Thanks for participating in this conversation. I start to think I'm not saying anything interesting when no one comments on my blogs! :)
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