I don't know how you plan on voting this coming year. That's up to you. But for reasons that are not political, I think I need to point out the obvious: Mitt Romney is not a Christian (He is also not a baseball mitt, but that's another subject).
Mormonism and Christianity are becoming confused in our popular media. Glenn Beck, the popular talk show host is a Mormon. He is not a Christian. Mitt Romney is a Mormon, not a Christian.
Where is the confusion coming in? It comes in here: Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney use the word "Christian" to describe themselves. Now, we can wrangle over the the meaning of the word, I suppose, but it is better to be historical. Historically, Christianity believes certain things about Jesus that Mormons don't believe. Likewise, past ages, who were more familiar with Christianity in general, did not classify Mormonism as Christian.
Mormonism was invented in the 1800's in America by a man named Joseph Smith. He invented scriptures which are filled with plagiarisms from the Bible, and fantastical histories of the North American continent and it's ancient peoples.
Mormonism differs from Christianity in many ways. For example, the definition of God: in Christianity, there is one God, and that God is three persons --Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To the Mormons, there are gods beyond number. All current gods were once men. Men today have the potential to achieve god-status in the world to come. This alone makes Mormonism unlike anything having to do with Christianity in any known historical form.
The other differences are many, but we don't really need to discuss them. If you have God wrong, you have everything wrong.
Mormonism is a strange American folk religion, no more. It is not Christianity.
29 comments:
Call Mormons "non-traditional christians" and end the arguments.
Martin, thanks for stepping in! your solution would indeed work IF the goal is to end the argument.
That is not my goal.
My goal is to clarify the truth. The term, "non-traditional christians" might make a distinction, but it adds to the confusion. What is a non-traditional Christian? What does it mean to be a Christian? There are people meeting in casual settings with modern music worshiping God with candles and sandals who are described as non-traditional Christians. And they are. compared to American tradition, they are not traditional. but they believe in things that Christians have always believed in, such as monotheism.
I'd say, they are not Christians at all. If they are Christians in any sense, than the word Christan has lost its former meaning.
to be clear, on my previous comment, it is Mormons who are not Christians. Non-traditional Christians who believe christian doctrine are indeed Christians.
Obama claims to be a Catholic. Can a Catholic be considered a Christian any more or any less than a Mormon can? I look at it this way. Ms. Clinton may claim to be a Wesleyan Methodist, but she doesn't observe a higher power than herself. At least in Mormonism, God is the higher power. I'd like to say I'm rooting for Huckabee, but I don't know him either - simply being a paster doesn't make anyone trustworthy to me. I say let Oprah buy me a new fridge and I'll just vote for Obama.
Andy,
the question I have isn't the individual sincerity of each candidate. I was discussing the religions themselves.
as for Catholicism, of course it is a Christian religion. it has at it's heart the essentials of the faith. many evangelicals find it hard to refer to as Christian because of all the extra-biblical doctrines. However, what makes a religion Christian has a historical base. it believes that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, both God and man, the one sacrifice for sins, etc. The apostles creed is a good test for the most part. Evangelicals, catholics, methodists, etc, all hold to the apostles creed. Mormons do not.
Romney's god is not a higher power. Romney's god is not God.
You are playing with semantics.
Those that believe in the Nicean Creed are traditional Christians.
Those that believe in Jesus Christ's divinity but reject the Nicean creed are "non-traditional christians" which is what Mormons are.
You really need to read this whole debate:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/blogalogue/mormondebate/
You claim to be Christian, so then you believe in "Blessed are the peacemakers . . . . "
lets please try to stop the pointless arguments.
Martin,
Why is it so important to you that declare Romney a Christian?
What value system is driving you?
Are you a Christian? How do you know? What Criteria do you use.
My friend, (though I think you feel your role in your life is simply to correct me, rather than be a friend, but I will assume the best), why are the semantics so important to you?
Mormons have the name Mormons. Am I a Mormon? Why don't we all use the same name for all beliefs that have anything to do with Jesus? Hindus believe Jesus is a god. Muslims believe He is a prophet. Are they Christians too? are they mormons.
Thanks for referring to a site where other people have other opinions. My friend, I am concerned with truth, not opinions.
Your need to bring resolution is not the same as being a peace maker. Peace without truth will always be short lived.
Do a little history homework. Learn the difference.
Mormons called themselves mormons and Latter Day Saints becuase they realized at one point that they were distinct from Chrsitianity. They thought themselves the only true church. They still do, by the way.
If you are so interested that we all get along, how about you go to the Mormons and say they let me walk into their tabernacle for as a "fellow Christian" I too have access to their faith?
My friend this is a complex issue. It is too much for your politically correct grid. The PC Grid is simple: Don't offend the Mormons who say their Christians. We must all get along.
We must all get along if I agree with you, is what you really mean.
Being a Christian is important to me. It is obviously not to you. The definition of a Christ follower is central to my life. It was important to historical Christians too, like the apostles and the church fathers. That's why they wrote the scripture and defined the creeds. they were defining what it means to be a Christian.
Mormons are Mormons. Christians are Christians.
Martin is Martin. (Wait, maybe we're all Martin...)
You are being defensive, and trying to use humor to dodge the issue, not unlike Huckabee.
Mormons should be able to label themselves 'nontraditional christians', without offending Methodists, Baptists evangelicals, etc.
Did you ever take biology?
Remember the Kingdom, order, phylm, family, genus, species, classification for living things?
Religion (Islam, Hindu, Tao, Shinto, Christianity),orders, movements, sects, churches.
Now analysing different religions in this way, it become more clear where the distinction lies.
Then one uses the term "christian" to refer to the broader family of all faiths that worship Jesus Christ.
Below that are movements that follow the Pope, or are Orthodox, or are Protestant.
Below that are Protestent sects, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, etc.
Then below that you ahve southern baptist, primiptive baptist, anabaptist etc. you get the point.
Now using that model Mormons are a different religious species from Baptists and a different order from Catholics,, but they are under the same family of faith - Christian.
When you try to say any worshipper of Jesus Christ is not Christian, then it is clearly a matter of semantics, and classification and I hope we can all see the truth in that.
The point is that no one need fear a politician that is a nontraditional Christian.
Hi Mike,
You draw the conclusion that Mormons aren’t Christians because “Christianity believes certain things about Jesus that Mormons don't believe.” Now every Christian religion pretty much believes things about other Christian religions that others don’t, yet they are all Christian. (Like his requirements for salvation, etc.) So you have drawn a line that says different beliefs in how Christ will save mankind is OK, and differenced in how he chooses to use a Church on the earth is OK, but it’s not OK if someone believes in Christ in a non-Trinitarian manner. It would be interesting to see where you found that particular definition.
I looked up a dictionary definition of Christianity, which seems like a more objective standard to use (Encarta):
Encarta gives a noun and an adjective definition of “Christianity”:
The noun is: “believer in Jesus Christ as savior.”
The adjective is: “from teachings of Jesus Christ: based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Messiah, and acceptance of his teachings, contained in the Gospels.”
I’ve also looked up a simple outline of what Mormons believe, found in their Articles of Faith: http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html
#1 says “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”
And #3 says “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.”
So it appears that Mormonism is as much “based on or relating to a belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Messiah,” as any Christian sect.
Now you talked about truth verse opinion, and though this doesn’t legitimize the truth of either the Mormon belief nor any other (nor does anything else in this blog), it should clarify the appropriate usage of the word “Christian.” Maybe a Mormon missionary or scholar can tag on later to debate the “truth” of either position with you. But the “fact” is that Mormons fit in the accepted definition of the word Christian.
Note: this whole Mormon/Christian row seems to me to be nothing more than a political expedience to help just about every GOP contender who wants of piece of Romney’s Iowa market share. I can understand the desire to get at Romney (especially as he’s been a bit of a mud-slinger as of late), but needlessly marginalizing a religion isn’t the way to go about it.
Martin,
you are missing me completely. So let me clarify
This is not about politics, nor about fearing politicians who are mormons. please read the original post and you will see that stated clearly. This is about public confusion about what it means to be Christian.
Second, I am not on the defensive. I am on the attack. I started the discussion. You are on the defensive by definition.
As for comparisons to biological classifications, all I can say is . . . okay.
Now for what is relevant. It is clearly important to you that Christianity is defined a certain way. In that we are equal. It is important to me too.
I reject your definition. Try to accept that and move along. That also will end the argument. I don't think we're going to agree.
Merry Christmas
Louis,
thanks for working so hard. perhaps you are not paying attention.
this is not about politics. At least not for me. Maybe you work for Romney or something, but I don't care who you vote for, and I have stated very clearly in the original post that I'm not bringing this up for political reasons. (for the record, knowing me, it is likely that I will vote for whoever is running against the democrat in this particular election, regardless of religion).
So pay attention: I am writing this because of the very thing you are demonstrating. There is confusion about what mormonism is. I appreciate what Encarta says something. But History is bigger than Encarta and some chat on beliefnet (My, my, what are they teaching the children in schools tokay?).
Study your history. Christians believe the following: Jesus is the one and only God. Mormons do not. Look it up. Christians believe that there will always be only one God. mormons do not. they believe that all men can potentially become gods. this is not anything like historical Christianity of any variety. I could go on, but the differences only make my point stronger.
You and Martin are only proving me right. You both have no ability to discern the difference between a Christian religion and a quasi-christian religion. I can only guess that a) you don't know enough about mormonism or b) you don't know enough about christianity) or c) both, or d) you love romney and feel a need to defend him against what you feel is an unfair attack.
In any case, set aside the dictionaries, and the web-chat rooms and do some real work in your history. I think you might find it elnightening.
Peace.
Date: shortly after 1517
From: Archbishop of Wittenberg, Germany
Dear Mr. Luther:
Study your history. Christians believe the following: the Catholic Church is the one and only Church. Protestants do not. Look it up. Christians believe that there will always be only one Church. Protestants do not. they believe that all men can know God without the Church. this is not anything like historical Christianity of any variety. I could go on, but the differences only make my point stronger.
Your 95 Theses are only proving me right. You have no ability to discern the difference between a Christian religion and a quasi-Christian religion. I can only guess that you don't know enough about Christianity.
In any case, set aside reason, and your 95 theses and do some real work in your history. I think you might find it enlightening.
Peace.
Thats it I am voteing for Fred!
Also , Marty and Louis, dictionarys or blogs or a book or two do not count for haveing a grasp of theology. To say they are the same things is saying that you are going to ignore doctrine. The word christian in it self is just a word. So lets say what we know as a traditional christian are called whamprats and Mormons are called, well, Mormons.
Because of their doctrine they can never be called whamprats. Yes it is because of they place Jesus into their faith. Yea-yea, I know, they say the son of God. You guys read that a freak out and tell us we are liveing in a cave. But......you forget to read the rest of the story. You little links have statements but when you see the full view you will see it is not the truth.
I do not want to argue point by point the mormon cults doctrine with you. I could but I am blogging my face for Fred (you have got to vote for that guy, but I digress).
On the statement below
"Now using that model Mormons are a different religious species from Baptists and a different order from Catholics,, but they are under the same family of faith - Christian."
If I bark,lick sctratch and crap in the yard does that make me a dog?
Marty!
I'm so proud of you. You discovered the protestant reformation! That's a big step for you. I know, its way beyond Wickapedia, but you are up to the challenge.
Now, your next lesson. What do protestants and catholics and the eastern orthodox, the greek orthodox, the russion orthodox, and evangelicals the world over have in common that the mormons don't?
Well, since this might be a little more study than you are used to, let me help:
They all believe that JEsus is God, that there is only one God, that there has only ever been one God, and there will only ever be one God.
Now the MOrmons --don't lose me on this, Martin, this is the history part that you seem to miss-- don't. They believe in many, many gods existing right now, and many of their own men joining them one day. This is nothing like Christianity.
Want some other differences? I know, this is alot, but I think you are up to it.
Mormons believe that the 12th tribe of Israel was lost and wandered into North America and built huge cities that no one else can find evidence of. All Christian denominations mentioned above? They don't believe this.
Mormons believe that if you wear special underwear, you can be a god one day. No Christian denominations believe this.
Mormons believe that humans have pre-existent souls just waiting for devout mormon women to provide bodies to. No Christian religion ever believes this.
All Christian religions believe the Bible is the ONLY scripture. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith gave them 4 scripture books.
Do I need to go on?
Please, Martin, do a little history work. I really don't need it pointed out that Catholics and Protestants split long ago. Hey, did you know there was another split 4 hundred years before that with the EAstern church? But some how, all these Christian denominations still hold the essentials of the divinity of Christ and Him being the one and only God the Son, who is Father, Son and Holy Ghost and shares that with no other gods for there aren't any other gods.
Mormons are not Christians, Martin.
Please. Buy a book.
You're embarassing me and bringing the educational level of my blog down.
Sorry Martin. I apologize.It was Louis who was informing me that the protestant reformation happened. Louis, please read the previous post addressed to Martin. It was really to you.
Martin, I suspend judgement. You may yet be paying attention.
Mormons want people to think they are Christians, but they are NOT Christians! They believe all kinds of strange things. And it's an offensive to any true Bible-believing Christians to say that they are Christians! Huck should have stuck to his guns and demanded a comprehensive answer to the question, "Do Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were brothers?" WHY??? Because the official website of the Mormon church explicitly makes the sibling connection between Jesus and Lucifer a matter of official Mormon doctrine!
Copy and Paste Link
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?
vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVC
M1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0
&sourceId=4a10ef960417b010VgnV
CM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
Well done. Excellent port!
May the Lord Jesus bless you forever.
apacallyps,
Welcome to the discussion. Yes, the truth is that the Mormon church teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers. This alone is heretical (and blasphemous) for it changes Jesus' claim to be "the only begotten of the Father."
You know, PC has invaded when it comes to truth in religion. Telling the truth about the history and the beliefs of the Mormons is taboo, just as it is not PC to tell the truth about the history and beliefs of the Muslims.
by the way, the similarity in the origins of those two religions is striking. Maybe another post . . .
We should all be respectful of one another here. After all, what would Jesus do? He dwelt among Jews and Hellenists but was meek. He controlled his emotions and words.
I am a Mormon. "Mormons" are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. We are followers of Jesus Christ and our church bears his name. We have clear doctrine (i.e. answers) concerning who and what God is. This is different from the "traditional" Christian church. All traditional Christian churches subscribe to the Nicene and Athanasian creeds. They declare the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, imminent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time.
In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible. Do you deny this creed? You know he exists, but beyond that, your doctrine is silent because he is incomprehensible. You cannot argue about what "Mormons" believe if your own church says you can have no understanding God.
Here is a link to a couple of other interesting points that the Bible says a true Christian church should have. Please enjoy reading them:
http://www.redmondfamily.com/Cancy%20and%20Craig/Church/17%20Points%20of%20the%20True%20Church
I should also state that the church shys away from influencing our personal political decisions. By the way, did you know that Harry Reid is also "Mormon?" There are a lot of Mormons out there - 13,000,000 of them. Often, as Jesus told us to do, we let our light shine rather than worry about beating others over the head about their beliefs. After all, that's what the Jews did to our Savior. That's what Saul did before he became Paul. You could be more like Paul too declare along with us that Christ lives, that God loves us, that we are his children, that we can pray to Him and he will answer in his own time and way. If you believe the same, then please don't bash "Mormons."
Adam,
thanks for your long and thoughtful reply. Here is my response.
Yes, i believe in the Trinity, three persons, One God. All Christians have always believed in that.
What Christians have NEVER believed until the 1800's and the Mormon is that there are more than one God. Adam, you believe there is more than one God. Call yourself a Christian if you want, but Christians of all stripes throughout the ages would call you a blasphemer (and they would be right).
As for your logic:
"God is incomprehensible
therefore I can't comprehend my own God,
therefore I cannot comment on Mormonism"
is not only false, it is invalid. Please, tell me they teach you better at Brigham Young.
As for politics and mixing it with religion, I don't care what the Mormon church does. My post was NOT about politics. IT was about public perceptions regarding mormonism.
Thank you for the head count on Mormons. Would you be shocked if I said, "I know." There is also a billion or so Muslims. There are also that many Catholics. There are also that many protestants. There are Buddhists. There are Hindus. There's lots of religions, aren't there, Adam? Are they all true?
Mormonism and Orthodox Christianity contradict each other on many crucial points. there are two posibilities: 1 neither is true religion in God's sight, 2 one or the other is true in God's sight.
I say yours is false. Do you have the courage to say mine is? Or do we want to play this game of acting like it doesn't really matter?
One more thing, you, like some other's who have posted, seem to think it important to correct me. You don't like what I say and recommend I stop saying it, and imply I am wrong to say what I say. Can I ask you: Why is it okay for you to judge me? Because you don't like my opinion.
Adam, if Christian means Mormon, then it no longer means Christian. We'll need a new name for us. How about this? You take Christian. We'll call ourselves, "Jesus People." I can live with that.
But, I'm sure you'll try to steal that too, right.
Adam, there is only One God. Adam, you will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER be a god. There are no disembodied spirits waiting for your wife to have babies. God was not a man before he came God. Satan is not Jesus' brother and never was.
Also, the American Indians are not Hebrews. There are no ancient Hebrew ruins in America.
Your religion is patently false. I'm sorry our society can't handle such truth, but allow me to be the bad guy who cares enough not to lie.
Have a nice day.
The name of the "Mormon" church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". I don't know where Mr. Greiner got the authority to declare people who are trying to do good in the name of our Savior, and are trying to follow His example and teachngs, to not be Christian.
I would like to suggest that if the readers of this blog are really interested and are seeking to learn the truth they must also listen to the other side of the story, as with any issue.
I think that a blogger who's only agenda is to educate would attack the doctrine only. I fail to see how it educates anyone to insult the members of the LDS church. So what is the real deal?
Mike, when you called Mr. Yaksich a theif for no reason I wondered if you were filled with love for your fellow man or not.
One of the Mormon articles of faith states that we don't criticize any who are trying to do good in the name of God. Rather than run their beliefs down we just try to share what we have with any who are interested. Why you have attacked our faith I don't know but I have to question whether it's out of concern that we not be led astray or it's just that you have something personal against the Mormons.
Hello Leroy Wolf,
My concern is truth, for the best way to set people free is by giving them truth in love.
As for where I get the authority to declare someone to be a follower of Christ or not, the answer is the Bible.
The Mormon faith is historically at odds with the Christian faith. This, Leroy, is not an attack. It is a truth statement. You might not agree with it. But it is not an attack.
Historical evidence that Mormonism is at odds with the Christian faith is abundant and easy to find. It is only in our modern times are the differences between mormonism and Christianity glossed over.
And that, my friend, was the point of my original post. There were two people (both of whom I like very much) in the public eye (Romney and Beck) and they were being referred to as Christians. Historically this is untrue. they are not Christians.
now, as to the higher road of discourse, I find it ironic that you feel free to throw me under the bus by wondering if I have nefarious intentions. You seem to live by the very set of standards you condemn me for.
If the point is that we are both sinners, then I agree.
My question to you, sir, is what the definition of "Christian" is. A "Christian" is one who believes in Christ, is it not? One who follows Him and does his best to be like Him.
Are you a Christian? I would like to know what you know about Mormonism, and how you can justify that Mormons aren't Christian, if that's fine with you?
And that "Apostle Creed" you speak of was created by man, not Christ. After Christ's death and the death of the Apostles who was left in charge to take the place of Simon Peter? No one.
Please clarify what you mean, because I am very confused by your judgment.
"John Doe?" that's the best you could do?
The Apostle's Creed was man made? What about the book of Mormon? The Pearl of Great Price? Who made these books? Was it not the man, Joseph Smith? Or do you trust Joseph Smith's word? If so, why? On what basis?
Mormons believe that there are Gods beyond number. They believe mormon men have the potential to become gods themselves one day.
I could go on (I know all about Mormonism, since you asked). But I feel nothing I say will convince you. But, if you had even a thimble-filled amount of knowledge of historic Christianity, orthodox Christianity, or Biblical Christianity (take your pick) you would see that just the polytheism is enough to disqualify mormonism from being Christian.
But you know what, John (Doe, right?)? You don't care and you know it. Truth is not your issue. You just don't like me pointing out that someone is not a Christian. You're offended by it because you can't believe anyone would dare say that someone else is not a Christian, right? You believe that truth is not the issue, but whether anyone has the right to tell anyone else that their religious claim is false. Isn't that right, John (Doe, right?). Well, there's nothing I can say to convince the post-modern mind which really doesn't know what to do with facts.
peace
Mike (Greiner is the last name).
So first you criticize a religion, claiming it isn't of Christian belief and then my name? Thank you, you're a very great Christian yourself. Are there any other religions you claim aren't Christian as well? Because this Mormonism religion isn't Christian based is fairly old. It's been going on since it first started.
Why would a man go so far to claim the religion he was preaching was true if it brought him and his followers so much pain and loss. I don't understand that. Would you say they were brainwashed into believing the religion then? Why fight for something that was untrue. And what happened to this "freedom of religion" if these early Mormons themselves weren't allowed to believe in their own religion? Why did so many mobs fight for this religion to die? I don't understand that. I know what you're thinking, because it's false. Have you ever tried reading their book? I have. I respect their religion and beliefs, as well as you should instead of backbiting them and going about, oh their religion isn't of Christian faith. To me, a Christian is one who believes in Christ and lives to be like him by faiths and good works. What about those people who don't follow a "religion", yet believe in Christ in some fashion? Explain that to me, please.
Look at the wars these other "Christian" based religions have started. These mass murders because of others not being part of their religion. Religion during the medieval times became more about politics than God. So many secrets from the people during those times. I don't see that as a "Christian" base religion. That's more greed and arrogance than anything else.
Who knows, haven't you read the scripture, John 10: 16 :
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Unless you're not into reading from the King James version and prefer the modernized instead.
John (Doe is the last name, thank you)
dear post modern johnny (was it Doe?),
To discuss this matter with you is like asking a dog to fly. Your thinker is too influenced by modern culture to think logically and in a step by step manner.
Here's the line which displays it (I say this not for you, as I know that NOTHING I say will convince you of anything): "To me, a Christian is one who believes in Christ and lives to be like him by faiths and good works"
Truth does not begin with the words "To me," Truth is, whether you get it or not.
The questions you should ask to determine if Mormon is Christian are of an entire different stream than, "What does Christianity mean to me?"
For example: did Joseph Smith tell the truth or not? Is the book of Mormon true or not? Is the "doctrine and covenants" true or not? Is the "pearl of great price" true or not? Does the leader of the Mormon church have the ability to reveal new revelations or not? Will regular men one day become gods or not?
Do you have answers to these questions, Johnny? Have you even asked them? I didn't think so. For you, truth begins with the words, "To me." Up until modern times, students were taught from the youngest age that opinions begin with "To me," but propositional truth statements do not.
I am very familiar with the book of Mormon and the other two mormon "holy books" I mentioned.
I know what the Bible says. I've read it in King James, New American Standard and even Greek. I say that not to brag, but because you asked.
Now, let me ask you some questions John (Doe is it?). Did you know that Mormons believe that there is a lost tribe of Israel what immigrated to North America and are the American Indians ("Native Americans")? Did you know that Johnny? Did you know that this is anthropologically impossible as Native Americans are of different descent than Jews?
Did you know that Mormons believe that Jesus came and visited the North American Indians? No?
Did you know that the Mormon holy books identify many great cities and civilizations in the New World that they say were once here, and that there is no evidence of even a single one of these cities?
Did you know that the book of mormon claims there were elephants and horses and complex metal alloys here in North America with that ancient so-called lost tribe of Israel, but neither elephants, nor horses, nor complex metal alloys were in North America before Europeans came here centuries later?
Did you know that the book of Mormon was revised many times, especially since the first issues had back-woods american language (for example the habit of putting the prefix a before verbs, like he came a-running)even though the book was supposedly translated by an angel and was perfect when Joseph Smith put down his pen? Didn't know that?
Did you know that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught that the biblical "mark of Cain" was dark skin and for that reason blacks were declared not eligible for being gods like white people for the first hundred years of mormonism? Did you know that? No?
Should I go on, or is that enough homework for you?
I could go on. There's lots more, it's coming right from memory. Imagine what I could show you with a google search or two.
Now John, if you want to continue to say truth starts with "to me" lets just agree to disagree, because truth that starts with "to me" is meaningless. But if you are interested in truth, do your homework and come back.
REmember, Christian has a "historical" meaning, whether it fits your "to me" definition or not. Look it up.
If you won't do this homework, respectfully, you have not earned the right to speak to this subject.
mike
ps. do you have a brother named John Q Public?
Who cares? The best would be if ridicolous superstitions were left out of the campaign.
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