please tell me what you think. I'll reserve my own opinions till later.
51 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Hi Mike - I imagine this was something like Moses heard when he came down off the mountain the first time after getting the original ten commandments. I doesn't speak to me as anything like I expect to hear when the multitudes praise God at the marriage supper. This is just whipping up emotion in my opinion. Thanks, Brian Trask
I'm not quite sure what I think of this. It's chaotic and loud for sure.
Keith said.. "What is this? Are you watching a warm up for a fourth grade school concert?" Before he formulates his opinion though he wants to know what this event is and where it happened.
What? God can't or won't hear our prayers without OT golden snakes on poles and "the sound of the shofar"? The God who knows every hair on our heads doesn't know what we need? If we need lasers for God to hear our praise, those poor souls before us, huh?
I didn't hear anything about God in that video (but I did shut it down early--it was too creepy and sad to listen to). It was all about the people working to get God's attention. I was expecting them to begin to cut themselves. Very disturbing.
At any time there is annoying background music like that while someone is talking, I'm out. My audience participation pretty much begins and ends at candlelight services. I guess I'd make a really bad occultist. I got 1/4 of the way into it - and heard lasers to heaven, or something to that extent. Didn't they read about the tower to heaven? It worked out so well for us - I still can't understand Chinese translated instructions that come with toys.
I only made it through half of the video. I can tell you I sure wouldn't want to be there.
What are they holding? Are those snakes?
And why does it matter whether their sound can be transmitted 25-thousand miles (if I heard that right) into space? Do they think God is a little hard of hearing?
The men at the back of the stage looked mildly embarrassed to me. Like it had gotten to be a little too weird even for them.
Our God needs neither hearing aide or glasses to hear the praise of his people. Seemed like a tribal ritual to me. Somewhere some walls must have come down? raycan
It looks like a trailer for the new Indiana Jones movie and the lazers...maybe from Star Wars, not too original. I am sure God was as unimpressed as most of us are.
I actually watched the whole thing, waiting to see if there was going to be some sort of big finish, like everyone vanishing into thin air or something. :) It definitely was a bit loud - but it was obvious that people were making "noise" in praise. All the shofars were pretty cool - and hearing them all together like that gave me goose bumps. With that said, I think we need to know the difference between getting whipped into a whirlwind of emotion and making a sacrifice of praise. If the people there were genuine in their praise-- cool. I know someone, who has a cousin that moved to KC just to be a part of IHOP, curious. Interested to read your opinions.
my thoughts: yes, we are free to use shofars in worship.
we are also free to send lasers into space.
However, I think Mindy's comments about wondering when they would start cutting themselves is close to my impression. For those who might not know, she was referring the prophets of Baal who hoped to be heard by their god for all their shouting, dancing, carrying on and even blood letting.
we are free to send shofar sounds into laser lights and shoot them into space, it is strange.
These are ihop influenced folks. They believe in something their founder, Mike Bickle, calls "harp and bowl" theology. Harp is worship, bowl is prayers. They believe that God is calling his church to usher in the end times and the golden age of the church through 24-7 singing and praying to God.
Singing and praying to God is good. Doing so 24-7? I suppose you can't praise and pray too much. However, believing that by such efforts you are ushering in the end times? That boarders on the animistic at worst, the irrelevant at best.
Bickle has himself promoted many false prophets and false prophesies (like Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, et al). His latest endeavor is more insidious for the undiscerning are easily captured. Who could say 24-7 prayers and praise is wrong? So he sucks in the unsuspecting convincing them that they are closer to what God is actually doing in these end times.
This show of shofars amazing God with the sound and the lasers is the fruit of such silliness. They do all this and they're serious about it. But a shofar and a light are indistinguishable noises. To celebrate in this way is fine and can even be godly. But to intimate that this somehow is impressing God with it's noise, or that lights into space somehow offer greater praise than words whispered softly, is error.
My conclusion: this video shows and exploits well-meaning confusion.
I don't know anything about this group, but I think the blowing of the shofar (a.k.a the trumpet) is pretty cool. The shofar is blown all throughout the Bible as a form of worship and God blows the shofar repeatedly...
Do you ever post an encouraging and uplifting blog? Perhaps people would benefit more from your blog if you would stop criticizing others and start lifting them up. I would think it to be more effective, as a pastor, for you to point to the Scriptures and not at others.
Wow...really?? I mean when I heard those horns my mind instantly went to the story of Jericho and the walls tumbling after the priests blew their shofars on God's command. God can hear the tiniest of whispers but why can He not be moved by the blowing of shofars in praise as well?? Time and time again we read of the Israelites blowing their shofars to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies. Why are we afraid to do the same?
Maybe if we spent less time focusing on how others praise the Lord and more on our own state of holiness a revolution would take place. But I know one thing, as long as the Church is divided among itself over things such as whether one style of worship is confusing or another isn't in no way brings honor to the Father.
I thank God that there are people who praise Him in ways I don't understand, or in ways that may make me uncomfortable. That is what makes this faith journey so exciting. I remember the first time I heard a lady in the privacy of her home pray in a prayer language. At first I was taken back because it was something unfamiliar to me, but as I sat and let my spirit hear her it was the most life changing experience I have ever encountered. I have many dear friends who thing prayer languages are nonsense, does that make them right and me wrong or vice versa? No. But if our motives are pure and our eyes on Christ, not on everybody else it doesn't matter!
Whether or not you agree with the prophecies of IHOP they have done incredible things and have been the source of many amazing ministries. I personally led a bible study using a text from IHOP and can say that our group was tremendously blessed.
Thank you for sharing this video...it blessed my heart and makes me want to go buy a shofar!
I am not the same anonymous...but i would say the difference is you are a pastor called to lead His sheep to Christ...not sway their opinions to match your own agenda.
Now it's going to get fun. The ihoppers are on board.
dear anonymous the second. I give you the same comment I gave to number one.
But, since you expect a different standard, then perhaps you too will live by that and defer to me as a pastor. So, anon, here is your lesson --and I know you will receive it since you are clearly eager to give lessons to pastors, you won't mind receiving them, right?
Pastor means shepherd. Shepherds of God are here to love and protect His sheep. this include protection from false teachings which are a way of exploiting His sheep. The prophets of KC are phonies. Unless you really believe that Paul Cain had all his sexual urges taken away by Jesus while driving in a car, and that's why he didn't marry --even though it just turns out he's gay. or unless you believe all the rot and unproven claims of Rick Joyner.
So, Anon two, beware the false teachers. It is my job to point this out to you. It is your job to listen. --like that'll happen.
Now, to dear Chellybelly, I say this: I really like your name. Enjoy your shofar. Hey, perhaps if you shine a flashlight in front of it and gather the kiddies around you can tell them how the light of the shofar is shining your prayers into heaven. Happy blowing.
Pastor Mike - I love your spunk. My first thoughts were of just the video. I have no background knowledge of IHOP.(I just thought they were a place that served pancakes!) My thoughts were... uh oh. I am a Charismatic Christian and sometimes I enjoy a little out there praises like flag worship, jumping around dancing, and I even pray in tongues.
My thoughts were I hope that I am not going to find you riping this down just because they blew shofars in worship. Because I have seen them used in beautiful ways of worship. So I was waiting on pins and needles to hear your reasonings.
I am relieved to hear that you had REASON behind it and could give me more background to the video then I had known just from watching it. (when watching it though my thoughts were that people were too looking around, talking not focusing on God and that sort of things BUGS me)
I am grateful to have you as my Shepherd who can dig deeper into things that might seem ok on the surface yet something is just not right.
My mom calls it her "gift of discerning spirits." She sometimes seems like a skeptic but 9 times out of 10 I am amazed at how she KNEW something was not right and it was not!
I myself do not have that gift. I do not pick up on things like she does that are just "not right." I am VERY pleased and find comfort in being in your flock. I trust you to be honest and warn us when you feel something is dangerous to get involved with.
Your blog is short and to the point sometimes with things. But it is just a blog. Not a Sunday Message.
So curious... what do you think of Lakeland, FL revivals going on? Any thoughts? I have just recently been hearing concern on that.
Pastor Mike, As I sat at my desk this afternoon writing you an encouraging note, I got a phone call. One of the questions the person asked me was, "Have you checked out your Pastor's blog lately?" My suriosity was activated so I did. My comment: After having taken 2 trips to israel and having the privilege of worshiping with Messianic and Christian believers in the Holy Land, my heart was stirred with gladness and rejoicing when i watched the video on your blog. The Words of the Lord just started to fill my mind: Psalms 66:1 "Shout with joy to god, all the earth!", Psams 47:1 "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy." Joel 2:1 "Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm in my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand."
Just recently I had the privilege of worshiping with a Messianic Congregation in Monroeville. The shofar was blown; they danced (men leading) around the church. It was thrilling to share in worship that was similiar to the worship that our Lord and Savior, Jesus participated in. We christians must never forget our roots and remember that we have been grafted into the Chosen people of God. Acts 11:18 "When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even Gentiles repentance unto life."
I know you know that everywhere in the Bible when it refers to trumpets sounding they are referring to the shofar. I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call ofGod, and the ded in Christ will rise first." This will be the loudest sounding shofar that mankind will ever hear.
Regarding Mike Bickle and IHOP: I have watched this ministry for years grow into a ministry that desires to please the Heart of God. God created mankind to worship Him and have a relationship with Him. Mike Bickle' heart is to have the same heart as Kind David who was sold out to God. Just read a few of the Psalms and you get the point. Please, please, please, Pastor do not criticise something you have not experienced. Revelation 4:8 "Each of the four living creatures had six wings, and was covered with eeyes all around even under the wings. DAY AND NIGHT, they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was, and is, and is to come." This scripture tells me that there is worship going on in heaven DAY AND NIGHT. I admire Mike Bickle and IHOP for having the dedication, stamina and even the people to carry on for years a 24/7 worship of God. Seems to me that this act of worship and dedication might bring a smile of pleasure to the face of God. It saddens my heart to know that at our church we can't even get pople to catch the vision to pray for one hour before the church services on sunday morning. We both know that prayer moves the hand of God. James 5:16 " Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." We have a sing at the back of our sanctuary regarding prayer but how much praying do we really do as a corporate body of Christ.
I do not profess to be a Bible scholar. I truly dislike apologetics. I am just a WOMAN who was created in the image of God and loves Him with all her heart. I also love the Body of Christ and i will not speak against God's other children. It saddens my heart greatly. I Samuel 24:6 "he said to his men, "The Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord's anointed or life my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the Lord." It is God's job to judge the heart of man. Well it's late. That's my comment Pastor. Sandy Minteer
What might this agenda that Mike is swaying people with be? What would Mike's personal benefit be from pointing out the flaws in this church's teaching? Please enlighten me.
It is unlikely that Mike would post this blog to steal member from the International House of Prayer in Kansas and sway them to Harvest Community Church of Pennsylvania.
He can't be blogging for money. He doesn't even ask for money.
Hmmm... What could the personal agenda be?
Perhaps he sees it as his duty as a pastor to lead the sheep God has leased to him in a Biblical direction. And doesn't that sometimes entail beating back the wolves that seek to devour them?
Yes I understand what you are saying but I think you sadly mistake false teachings from different theologies, and therefore you yourself are participating in false teachings. Non of the people you have mentioned are turning people's eyes away from the Lord, they simply interpret and experience things different than you. When I hear you I am not more encouraged to seek truth and Christ. I really think you need to evaluate who the true anti-Christs are and what false teachings are.
Lindai! You are a voice of grace to me. Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if I am so flawed in communicating on this blog that I don't make any sense at all. But you restore my faith that I am clear at least to someone!
By the way, I hope that it is noticed that I posted this video without any negative words, just the question, "What do you make of this?" The answers were from all over, and fairly uniform. Why? Others had similar impressions.
But to be clear to those who are listening: there is nothing wrong with shofars or any other musical instrument (is a shofar musical? I'm not sure) in worship. In fact, God calls for music played LOUD!
The question I was posing was really, "Is what is on this video producing a magnified picture of God and increasing His worship, or is it confusing people?" The answers I received from the first several posters seems to indicate the latter and not the former.
Are the people doing it free to do it? sure. Is it sin? I don't think so. Is it helpful for young believers or can it hinder them? now that's another question.
As far as the idea that because we send our sounds up by laser we are somehow reaching the "highest heavens" or however that guy described it, that is bad Bible knowledge. If that light went a million miles up, it got no closer to God, who is everywhere. There is certainly no physical being up there to hear it or see it, so I'm not sure how there is any spiritual value to it. This, it seems to me, would be confusing, especially to people who do know their Bibles well yet. What next? A rocket ship with prayer requests shot into space?
Lindai, you were correct to discern that this was not an attack on worship styles. I think the Bible allows so much freedom in this area that we all must be very flexible and allow for differing expressions, as they vary from person to person, and local church to local church. You also picked up that this question I raised had nothing to do with the sign gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. Perhaps, Lindai, you are more discerning than you give yourself credit for?
Thanks for that thoughtful post. I appreciate the time you put into to it in order to express yourself clearly.
I have good news for you. I might have been confusing before, but I am not against the Shofar. Not at all. I have been in Messianic services in more than one area myself, and I have heard it blown even in evangelical services. This post is not about the shofar.
It is about the event, and what especially caught my interest was the idea of converting the sounds of shofars into laser lights in order to have one's praises reach the highest heavens. This aspect is, if I may be so bold, strange at best, foolish at worst.
That was really all I was getting at with the video. That's not all that controversial is it?
But then I was asked who sponsored this, and that led me to IHOP.
Now, you said you know MIke Bickel's heart is to be like david, and you also said we can't know other's hearts. You also said not to speak to things I haven't experienced.
Here is my answer to that, and it may sound strong, but I speak it to you in love. I have experienced all sorts of worship, so I am not unfamiliar with Jewish Christian worship, nor all kinds of Charismatic worship situations. I do not oppose these things.
you are right, I don't know Bickle's heart. May I add, neither do you. So what should we judge him on? How about his teachings? I have read his book, "Growing in the Prophetic" and found it to be filled with eroneous teachings. I have investigated the people he celebrates in that book, like Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, etc, and have found not their hearts, but the words of their mouths to be false. I cannot see their hearts, but I can read their words. And so, with love, I warn you, bewared Bickle, beware the KC prophets.
To go deeper, the harp and bowl theology that they promote is a unified system of end times beliefs. It is not just another way of worshiping. They believe certain things will happen if they do certain things. They do not get this info from the Bible but they get them from unverified prophesies.
To look at things with an even wider lense, we must not be fearful of speaking out against false teaching, even among fellow believers. Paul publicly confronted Peter to correct him theologically! I am not saying Bickle is not a Christian. I'm saying his teachings are tainted, whatch out!
I am subject to the same scrutiny and invite it. no man is above the Word of God.
I know of your great love for me, Sandy, and so I say all of these things to you with seriousness. May God lead.
Anon, we live in a society where people doing things in other places access the flock up here in PA. Therefore, we must interact with these ideas. We cannot simply ignore them. Secondly, because someone is "Christian" does not act as a forcefield against all scrutiny.
Furthermore, you need to not make things so personal. Really, if you are going to participate in blogs, you need a thicker skin. I'm sorry that you are "saddened" by me. I hope you have a better day tomorrow.
Anon, on that issue, I agree with you 100%! Thanks for that reminder and I do and will indeed seek to do that.
You are right, my tongue can be sharp. I don't mean for it to hurt. I know my calling regarding preaching and truth, and it requires me often to stand in the areas of disagreement. But to do so with grace to all who hear? That is so hard for me. But I am working on it.
Thanks for your suggestion on that, and I'd covet your prayers also.
Sandy, Several things you write I find interesting but the biggest one is where you stated, "I truly dislike apologetics." This I find odd for a believer to say. Given that apologetics is simply giving people answers and reasons to believe the gospel, I don't understand why a follower of Christ would "truly dislike" that. In fact, the Bible uses the word apologetics when refering to Paul witnessing in the book of Acts. Jesus, John, Luke, Peter, and Paul give us many examples to show that they were, in fact, apologists. Now obviously, I believe you are a believer so I'm not saying you're not but what you have written, but can you explain what you mean by that?
OK, just one more thing bugging me. Not to be a pest but, how is I Samuel 24:6 applicable here? I didn't see anywhere where Pastor Mike wanted to do physical harm to any of the IHOP gang. That is, of course, the context of this verse. You do realize it has nothing to do with testing someone's teachings by the Scriptures? Otherwise, as Mike already noted, Paul would have been in sin to question and rebuke Peter.
Please understand I'm not trying to be confrontational here but we all need to think these things through. I'm young but I've seen and experienced much of this in my 30 some years. I practically grew up in this stuff but I know the damage it can do to people.
Actually, in response to a previous post by Mike, this is not The One conference put on by IHOP. It is actually The Call that was held on 7-7-07 in Nashville.
As stated on TheCall's website: TheCall is a divinely initiated multi-racial, multi-generational, and cross-denominational gathering to cooperate prayer and fasting. Believing that our nation is in desperate need of the mercy of God and a great Spiritual Awakening, TheCall mobilizes people from all across America to gather together to humbly petition Almighty God for undeserved mercy for our nation. Just as in the days of Joel, we believe that now is the time to blow the trumpet across our land, to fast, to pray, and return to the Lord with all our hearts.
This gathering isn’t about promoting any man or any ministry rather it is about bowing low before a merciful God and in the place of worship and prayer ministering before the Lord as priests. For the 12 hours of TheCall there will only be a corporate people with a unitary voice crying out to a loving God who desires to show mercy.
The 12 hours of TheCall are spent primarily before the Lord in the place of prayer and worship.
You can read more about it at their website, www.thecall.com
Although Mike Bickle is affiliated with TheCall, Lou Engle is actually the founder. The other "false prophets" as you call them, (Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones) are not leaders in this organization. Whether or not they participated in the event is a seperate matter and shouldn't influence someone as I'm sure there are always people in corporate worship settings that you do not agree with.
Also, the 300 who blew shofars was symbolic of Gideon's army in Judges 7. I don't think it had anything to do with shooting lasers into Heaven. Perhaps, he used a bad analogy trying to explain how loud 300 shofars was going to be, but that shouldn't take away from the purpose of TheCall and the event.
Good. that didn't take long. Watch out for Lou Engle too. Nothing wrong with praying or asking people to pray. He is a senior leader of IHOP with Mike Bickle, and therefore, we can assume he is a baker of Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and the other false prophets.
He is not only in on the IHOP movement, but is the founder of the JHOP movement. that's right. JHOP. It is like IHOP (only no pancakes).
I'm rather distressed as to how you are approaching this video. The man simply relays information from a scientist that the sound they're releasing with their shofars would be equivalent to light waves that would reach 25,000miles into space. If I can quote you, it's interesting at best, and an odd analogy at worst. I think you took this way overboard and in doing so, have begun causing strife and division, and where these things are the devil is also. You many want to stay away from provoking such things. Because the devil provokes, God leads.
Also, a pastor, should be encouraging, a leader is a bad one who is not able to encourage his flock and only criticizes others and shows a judgemental and critical spirit. The Bible is especially clear about judgement against other believers, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
I appreciate your boldness. However, I just wish it was used in a more fruitful manner, such as preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ instead of tryign to cause division. I wasn't aware that criticizing others for no reason was producing good fruit.
That being said, I will be praying for you and your congregation.
Anon, Excuse me! How dare you insinuate that my pastor is not an encourager. This man is a great encourager and a great pastor. I find it funny that you put him in league with the Devil but somehow in your mind, that's not being critical or discouraging?!?!?!?! Get a clue. You can't live by your own rules.
Also, if any man preaches the gospel, it's Mike. And finally, you are wrong. He should be causing division. Dividing true Christianity from the circus act that these people have turned our faith into. There are things worth taking a stand against and this, most definitely, is one of them.
Darin, I'm not the same anon who you are responding to but I do find it intersting that you want your pastor to divide and discern for you against other spiritual leaders in the nation as long as no one does the same to him. Obviously, this anon feels that your pastor is saying or doing things that he feels are worth taking a stand against. I myself have questioned the purpose of this blog at times. As I believe another anon posted earlier that they felt this blog was negative and bringing division. If your pastor is going to criticize and judge other pastors publicly, what makes him safe from this judgement? Jesus said "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Surely, this anon is free to express his concern for the Church body the same as you are doing. I'm sure that the members of Lou Engle, Mike Bickler, and Rick Joyner's congregations would say that they are encouraging and speak the Word and yet YOU put them in the same category as the devil. What makes it different from one pastor to the next?
Jesus said, according to the Gospel of Luke, "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Perhaps we should all take a step back from judging the way others lead worship, the theologies they believe, and the denomination they belong to and focus on reaching the lost. Paul said in Phillippians, "The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance."
No one is telling you not to discern spiritual matters, the Bible clearly tells us to "test the spirits" to see if they are Godly. But I think the concern of the anons on this page is that too much is being said to criticize and judge in public, especially about matters that we don't all understand or have personally experienced. Their concern is this may cause more division among the Church.
Thanks for your participation. I want to make a couple things clear.
Yes, all of you are free to be critical of me. I am not insulted. In fact, your criticisms are evidence of your own thinking and add to the discussion (though not always as you have planned, I'm sure).
That said, I get the fact that we disagree. I can live with that. But pointing it out ad-nauseum is tedious. I know, I know, I know, you interpret what I have said here as critical of someone elses theology and worship and teaching and you think I am negative and divisive. I've got it.
I think you are wrong, at least as you present your arguments.
Now, the sides are clear. Is there any value to keep repeating ourselves?
I will continue to use this blog to deal with the state of the church in America and worldwide. If you are offended now, you will probably continue to be offended. If you want to keep telling me and the world how certain you are that I am divisive, negative (of the devil, or whatever else), I guess you can, but wouldn't it be easier if you just come up with one to three simple sentences and post that every time.
Something like, "I think you're negative and divisive. Praying for you. Good bye now."
Give that a go. For the rest of you, those brave enough to believe that testing the spirits might be part of thinking through these issues, please continue to be verbose. You are better at creating someting new and interesting to say.
Tell you what, if division is "never the right thing to do" then why don't we apologize to the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and any other group of people claiming to be Christian and invite them to come on in and join with us. Let's no longer be concerned with "rightly interpreting the Word of truth" and just all join together as one big group of people who worship Jesus.
May I remind you of the following passage of Scripture:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Act 20:29 “I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 “and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Did you see what it says in verse 30? "...from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things." Please help me understand, we are not supposed to be divisive, but yet, Paul makes it clear that these "wolves" will be in the church. Pray tell, how do we "protect the flock" if we do not divide truth from error?
Finally, again please note the duty of a pastor from Titus 1:9 "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."
Rebuke is a pretty strong word. Thank you pastor Mike for doing what Scripture commands you to do.
I am sure I am late too this, but here is my two sense.
I was told about this video and I said it sounded like idolatry. Now having seen it, I stand by my comment. Their adoration of the shofars coming in is proof enough. Their beliefs that it sends the beams 25,000 miles out and implying that God will then hear them, explains their misuse of the worship instrument. I guess they believe that God will not be able to hear them, otherwise. It seems that they think if they are long and loud, God will hear and act according to their prayers.
Matt. 6:7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Ultimately, we can test their prophetic words about their act of worship. They claimed that "everything would change" for the nation and God's desires for the nation would happen when they did this.
Well, has this happened? What has changed? Everything?
Deut. 18:21-22 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Second, my main thought here after seeing the video and reading the blogs - wasting WAY too much time doing so - is to wonder why you choose to spend your time tearing down something that may be honest praise to God (b/c you don't know their hearts). I understand and respect your desire to point out false teachers and wolves to your flock. I really do. But there will always be those in the world you won't always be around to point out who is and who isn't a deceiver. So maybe you should focus your time on teaching truth on your blog so that your flock can figure it out on their own when they encounter it.
You have suggested, albeit possibly sarcastically, that you agree you need to work on taming your tongue. Maybe you and others who have contributed to the comments need to stop and think before you click send and ask yourself if what you are saying is in love and in a loving manner. In other words, WWJD? :) This blog is all I have an opportunity to know of you and most of those who posted. To me it only gives me the impression of mean spirited-ness and self-righteousness. I have to believe that is not the impression you prefer strangers to have of you as your witness.
Just a suggestion...
As for this particular video, I found it very beautiful and moving when all the trumpets were blown. As one of the other posters mentioned, it reminded me of the Israelites marching around the walls of Jericho. It pointed me to a reminder of God's glory and power. If their praise was honest - and I believe that is God's judgment to make, not mine - I think that's pretty cool.
Anonymous, for goodness sake, could you give me a break. If I defend my position, you don't hear, you call me names (mean-spirited, self-righteous). you won't give your name, but mine is on the line. You don't mind giving me advice but you don't think I have a right to speak out in public about what happens on youtube in the name of Christ.
It seems I will say nothing to please you. so I don't respond, and you don't like that response.
I say I will consider curbing my tongue and you don't believe me, you call it sarcastic. What do I have to do to please you?
We don't agree. I don't hate you. I don't even know who you are. You think I'm mean, self-righteous, not listening, etc, etc. What is it you expect me to say to those kinds of things?
Ok...so after reading through all of this I am troubled. I do not pretend to be some great biblical scholar but it doesn't take a master theologian to figure this out. First I will address the video. I did not watch it entirely as I didn't feel like sitting through several minutes of "noise." I did see the beginning and waited at the end for something other than said nosie to happen....nothing did. With that said, the interpretation of the event is left to the viewer. I saw nothing inherently wrong or masterfully spiritual about it. The comments about the shofar being used in the bible are true...big deal. It is the reason for its use that seem to be in question. Is it out of divine direction or for the purpose of, " Hey look what we can do!"
God knows the heart of every man, woman, and child and he can determine the rightousness of these acts. A "shepard" questioning them is merely that, a pastor doing what he feels led to do by Christ's direction. Take care of God's sheep.
Now for those who took the comments by Mike as insulting, search your heart for your reasons. Are you insecure about questions being raised? And the comments about being divisive. Christ was the most divisive person in the bible!! He rightously divided the church of the time. He questioned those in leadership, he relentlessly defended the truth to those in religious authority. He did not do it weakly, he bodly proclaimed the truth and he flat out told them they were wrong. That is why he was despised and rejected. We are obligated to find the truth and even more so obligated to shine the light on those who need exposed for false teachings.
With that said, some of you might say that is what you are doing. Questioning Mike to see if he is teaching the truth, to intepret for yourself his motive. Instead of attacking him as a person, take some time to pray for him, pray that he speaks for God, not for himself. What can be the harm in that......God bless all and may His truth be known.
Dan, thanks for your comments. Not only because you were kind to me either (although I am encouraged).
Without question, the critics are partially correct. I need to constantly be examining my heart and tongue.
There are many internal wars going on within us at all times, aren't there? It is not just "flesh and spirit" and that's it. or maybe it is, but in different shapes.
Something rises us within me when I perceive falsehood within the church. I mean, it is strong. I feel a need not to lose my temper, but to stand up and fight. Yet, at the same time, another part within wonders how to do that with love and kindness. Another part wonders how to communicate well. Another part says, "Hey, just stay out of it, and no one can criticize you." Then another part says, this is what you were born for. and so on, and so on.
As I get older (not old, but older), it seems the time for cowardice and sitting things out needs to pass. Risks must be taken, and let God judge.
So, I really do appreciate the prayers of both friends and critics (who might also be friends!). If they really take time to pray, that is.
Well, I have to go now. I'm working on a machine that converts piano sounds to laser beams so I can shoot "how great though art"'s melody into the stratosphere.
51 comments:
Hi Mike - I imagine this was something like Moses heard when he came down off the mountain the first time after getting the original ten commandments. I doesn't speak to me as anything like I expect to hear when the multitudes praise God at the marriage supper. This is just whipping up emotion in my opinion. Thanks, Brian Trask
I'm not quite sure what I think of this. It's chaotic and loud for sure.
Keith said.. "What is this? Are you watching a warm up for a fourth grade school concert?" Before he formulates his opinion though he wants to know what this event is and where it happened.
What? God can't or won't hear our prayers without OT golden snakes on poles and "the sound of the shofar"? The God who knows every hair on our heads doesn't know what we need? If we need lasers for God to hear our praise, those poor souls before us, huh?
I didn't hear anything about God in that video (but I did shut it down early--it was too creepy and sad to listen to). It was all about the people working to get God's attention. I was expecting them to begin to cut themselves. Very disturbing.
At any time there is annoying background music like that while someone is talking, I'm out. My audience participation pretty much begins and ends at candlelight services. I guess I'd make a really bad occultist. I got 1/4 of the way into it - and heard lasers to heaven, or something to that extent. Didn't they read about the tower to heaven? It worked out so well for us - I still can't understand Chinese translated instructions that come with toys.
These have been my four favorite answers to any question I've ever asked on a blog!
But I won't comment yet. Just in case someone else chimes in.
To answer Keith's question: this is the "One" conference put on by the "International House of Prayer" in Kansas City.
I only made it through half of the video. I can tell you I sure wouldn't want to be there.
What are they holding? Are those snakes?
And why does it matter whether their sound can be transmitted 25-thousand miles (if I heard that right) into space? Do they think God is a little hard of hearing?
The men at the back of the stage looked mildly embarrassed to me. Like it had gotten to be a little too weird even for them.
Our God needs neither hearing aide or glasses to hear the praise of his people. Seemed like a tribal ritual to me. Somewhere some walls must have come down?
raycan
It looks like a trailer for the new Indiana Jones movie and the lazers...maybe from Star Wars, not too original. I am sure God was as unimpressed as most of us are.
I actually watched the whole thing, waiting to see if there was going to be some sort of big finish, like everyone vanishing into thin air or something. :) It definitely was a bit loud - but it was obvious that people were making "noise" in praise. All the shofars were pretty cool - and hearing them all together like that gave me goose bumps. With that said, I think we need to know the difference between getting whipped into a whirlwind of emotion and making a sacrifice of praise. If the people there were genuine in their praise-- cool.
I know someone, who has a cousin that moved to KC just to be a part of IHOP, curious. Interested to read your opinions.
Wow, so many great comments.
my thoughts: yes, we are free to use shofars in worship.
we are also free to send lasers into space.
However, I think Mindy's comments about wondering when they would start cutting themselves is close to my impression. For those who might not know, she was referring the prophets of Baal who hoped to be heard by their god for all their shouting, dancing, carrying on and even blood letting.
we are free to send shofar sounds into laser lights and shoot them into space, it is strange.
These are ihop influenced folks. They believe in something their founder, Mike Bickle, calls "harp and bowl" theology. Harp is worship, bowl is prayers. They believe that God is calling his church to usher in the end times and the golden age of the church through 24-7 singing and praying to God.
Singing and praying to God is good. Doing so 24-7? I suppose you can't praise and pray too much. However, believing that by such efforts you are ushering in the end times? That boarders on the animistic at worst, the irrelevant at best.
Bickle has himself promoted many false prophets and false prophesies (like Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, et al). His latest endeavor is more insidious for the undiscerning are easily captured. Who could say 24-7 prayers and praise is wrong? So he sucks in the unsuspecting convincing them that they are closer to what God is actually doing in these end times.
This show of shofars amazing God with the sound and the lasers is the fruit of such silliness. They do all this and they're serious about it. But a shofar and a light are indistinguishable noises. To celebrate in this way is fine and can even be godly. But to intimate that this somehow is impressing God with it's noise, or that lights into space somehow offer greater praise than words whispered softly, is error.
My conclusion: this video shows and exploits well-meaning confusion.
I don't know anything about this group, but I think the blowing of the shofar (a.k.a the trumpet) is pretty cool. The shofar is blown all throughout the Bible as a form of worship and God blows the shofar repeatedly...
Do you ever post an encouraging and uplifting blog? Perhaps people would benefit more from your blog if you would stop criticizing others and start lifting them up. I would think it to be more effective, as a pastor, for you to point to the Scriptures and not at others.
thank you anonymous. do you ever post an encouraging post? Do you know how much more I like to hear nice things about myself than criticisms?
But you felt you had something corrective to say, and in public, didn't you? Well so did I.
Now, what's the difference?
Wow...really?? I mean when I heard those horns my mind instantly went to the story of Jericho and the walls tumbling after the priests blew their shofars on God's command. God can hear the tiniest of whispers but why can He not be moved by the blowing of shofars in praise as well?? Time and time again we read of the Israelites blowing their shofars to strike fear in the hearts of their enemies. Why are we afraid to do the same?
Maybe if we spent less time focusing on how others praise the Lord and more on our own state of holiness a revolution would take place. But I know one thing, as long as the Church is divided among itself over things such as whether one style of worship is confusing or another isn't in no way brings honor to the Father.
I thank God that there are people who praise Him in ways I don't understand, or in ways that may make me uncomfortable. That is what makes this faith journey so exciting. I remember the first time I heard a lady in the privacy of her home pray in a prayer language. At first I was taken back because it was something unfamiliar to me, but as I sat and let my spirit hear her it was the most life changing experience I have ever encountered. I have many dear friends who thing prayer languages are nonsense, does that make them right and me wrong or vice versa? No. But if our motives are pure and our eyes on Christ, not on everybody else it doesn't matter!
Whether or not you agree with the prophecies of IHOP they have done incredible things and have been the source of many amazing ministries. I personally led a bible study using a text from IHOP and can say that our group was tremendously blessed.
Thank you for sharing this video...it blessed my heart and makes me want to go buy a shofar!
I am not the same anonymous...but i would say the difference is you are a pastor called to lead His sheep to Christ...not sway their opinions to match your own agenda.
Now it's going to get fun. The ihoppers are on board.
dear anonymous the second. I give you the same comment I gave to number one.
But, since you expect a different standard, then perhaps you too will live by that and defer to me as a pastor. So, anon, here is your lesson --and I know you will receive it since you are clearly eager to give lessons to pastors, you won't mind receiving them, right?
Pastor means shepherd. Shepherds of God are here to love and protect His sheep. this include protection from false teachings which are a way of exploiting His sheep. The prophets of KC are phonies. Unless you really believe that Paul Cain had all his sexual urges taken away by Jesus while driving in a car, and that's why he didn't marry --even though it just turns out he's gay. or unless you believe all the rot and unproven claims of Rick Joyner.
So, Anon two, beware the false teachers. It is my job to point this out to you. It is your job to listen. --like that'll happen.
Now, to dear Chellybelly, I say this: I really like your name. Enjoy your shofar. Hey, perhaps if you shine a flashlight in front of it and gather the kiddies around you can tell them how the light of the shofar is shining your prayers into heaven. Happy blowing.
Pastor Mike - I love your spunk. My first thoughts were of just the video. I have no background knowledge of IHOP.(I just thought they were a place that served pancakes!) My thoughts were... uh oh. I am a Charismatic Christian and sometimes I enjoy a little out there praises like flag worship, jumping around dancing, and I even pray in tongues.
My thoughts were I hope that I am not going to find you riping this down just because they blew shofars in worship. Because I have seen them used in beautiful ways of worship. So I was waiting on pins and needles to hear your reasonings.
I am relieved to hear that you had REASON behind it and could give me more background to the video then I had known just from watching it.
(when watching it though my thoughts were that people were too looking around, talking not focusing on God and that sort of things BUGS me)
I am grateful to have you as my Shepherd who can dig deeper into things that might seem ok on the surface yet something is just not right.
My mom calls it her "gift of discerning spirits." She sometimes seems like a skeptic but 9 times out of 10 I am amazed at how she KNEW something was not right and it was not!
I myself do not have that gift. I do not pick up on things like she does that are just "not right." I am VERY pleased and find comfort in being in your flock. I trust you to be honest and warn us when you feel something is dangerous to get involved with.
Your blog is short and to the point sometimes with things. But it is just a blog. Not a Sunday Message.
So curious... what do you think of Lakeland, FL revivals going on? Any thoughts? I have just recently been hearing concern on that.
Pastor Mike,
As I sat at my desk this afternoon writing you an encouraging note, I got a phone call. One of the questions the person asked me was, "Have you checked out your Pastor's blog lately?" My suriosity was activated so I did.
My comment:
After having taken 2 trips to israel and having the privilege of worshiping with Messianic and Christian believers in the Holy Land, my heart was stirred with gladness and rejoicing when i watched the video on your blog. The Words of the Lord just started to fill my mind: Psalms 66:1 "Shout with joy to god, all the earth!", Psams 47:1 "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy." Joel 2:1 "Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm in my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand."
Just recently I had the privilege of worshiping with a Messianic Congregation in Monroeville. The shofar was blown; they danced (men leading) around the church. It was thrilling to share in worship that was similiar to the worship that our Lord and Savior, Jesus participated in. We christians must never forget our roots and remember that we have been grafted into the Chosen people of God. Acts 11:18 "When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even Gentiles repentance unto life."
I know you know that everywhere in the Bible when it refers to trumpets sounding they are referring to the shofar. I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call ofGod, and the ded in Christ will rise first." This will be the loudest sounding shofar that mankind will ever hear.
Regarding Mike Bickle and IHOP: I have watched this ministry for years grow into a ministry that desires to please the Heart of God. God created mankind to worship Him and have a relationship with Him. Mike Bickle' heart is to have the same heart as Kind David who was sold out to God. Just read a few of the Psalms and you get the point. Please, please, please, Pastor do not criticise something you have not experienced. Revelation 4:8 "Each of the four living creatures had six wings, and was covered with eeyes all around even under the wings. DAY AND NIGHT, they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was, and is, and is to come." This scripture tells me that there is worship going on in heaven DAY AND NIGHT. I admire Mike Bickle and IHOP for having the dedication, stamina and even the people to carry on for years a 24/7 worship of God. Seems to me that this act of worship and dedication might bring a smile of pleasure to the face of God. It saddens my heart to know that at our church we can't even get pople to catch the vision to pray for one hour before the church services on sunday morning. We both know that prayer moves the hand of God. James 5:16 " Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." We have a sing at the back of our sanctuary regarding prayer but how much praying do we really do as a corporate body of Christ.
I do not profess to be a Bible scholar. I truly dislike apologetics. I am just a WOMAN who was created in the image of God and loves Him with all her heart. I also love the Body of Christ and i will not speak against God's other children. It saddens my heart greatly. I Samuel 24:6 "he said to his men, "The Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord's anointed or life my hand against him; for he is the anointed of the Lord." It is God's job to judge the heart of man. Well it's late. That's my comment Pastor. Sandy Minteer
I also have a question for the second Anon.
What might this agenda that Mike is swaying people with be? What would Mike's personal benefit be from pointing out the flaws in this church's teaching? Please enlighten me.
It is unlikely that Mike would post this blog to steal member from the International House of Prayer in Kansas and sway them to Harvest Community Church of Pennsylvania.
He can't be blogging for money. He doesn't even ask for money.
Hmmm... What could the personal agenda be?
Perhaps he sees it as his duty as a pastor to lead the sheep God has leased to him in a Biblical direction. And doesn't that sometimes entail beating back the wolves that seek to devour them?
I don't know. Just a hunch.
Yes I understand what you are saying but I think you sadly mistake false teachings from different theologies, and therefore you yourself are participating in false teachings. Non of the people you have mentioned are turning people's eyes away from the Lord, they simply interpret and experience things different than you. When I hear you I am not more encouraged to seek truth and Christ. I really think you need to evaluate who the true anti-Christs are and what false teachings are.
Lindai! You are a voice of grace to me. Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if I am so flawed in communicating on this blog that I don't make any sense at all. But you restore my faith that I am clear at least to someone!
By the way, I hope that it is noticed that I posted this video without any negative words, just the question, "What do you make of this?" The answers were from all over, and fairly uniform. Why? Others had similar impressions.
But to be clear to those who are listening: there is nothing wrong with shofars or any other musical instrument (is a shofar musical? I'm not sure) in worship. In fact, God calls for music played LOUD!
The question I was posing was really, "Is what is on this video producing a magnified picture of God and increasing His worship, or is it confusing people?" The answers I received from the first several posters seems to indicate the latter and not the former.
Are the people doing it free to do it? sure. Is it sin? I don't think so. Is it helpful for young believers or can it hinder them? now that's another question.
As far as the idea that because we send our sounds up by laser we are somehow reaching the "highest heavens" or however that guy described it, that is bad Bible knowledge. If that light went a million miles up, it got no closer to God, who is everywhere. There is certainly no physical being up there to hear it or see it, so I'm not sure how there is any spiritual value to it. This, it seems to me, would be confusing, especially to people who do know their Bibles well yet. What next? A rocket ship with prayer requests shot into space?
Lindai, you were correct to discern that this was not an attack on worship styles. I think the Bible allows so much freedom in this area that we all must be very flexible and allow for differing expressions, as they vary from person to person, and local church to local church. You also picked up that this question I raised had nothing to do with the sign gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12. Perhaps, Lindai, you are more discerning than you give yourself credit for?
Thanks for the kind words.
In His Grip,
Mike
Oh, and one more thing. I know nothing of the Lakeland, Florida events you mentioned. Should I look them up?
Sandy,
Thanks for that thoughtful post. I appreciate the time you put into to it in order to express yourself clearly.
I have good news for you. I might have been confusing before, but I am not against the Shofar. Not at all. I have been in Messianic services in more than one area myself, and I have heard it blown even in evangelical services. This post is not about the shofar.
It is about the event, and what especially caught my interest was the idea of converting the sounds of shofars into laser lights in order to have one's praises reach the highest heavens. This aspect is, if I may be so bold, strange at best, foolish at worst.
That was really all I was getting at with the video. That's not all that controversial is it?
But then I was asked who sponsored this, and that led me to IHOP.
Now, you said you know MIke Bickel's heart is to be like david, and you also said we can't know other's hearts. You also said not to speak to things I haven't experienced.
Here is my answer to that, and it may sound strong, but I speak it to you in love. I have experienced all sorts of worship, so I am not unfamiliar with Jewish Christian worship, nor all kinds of Charismatic worship situations. I do not oppose these things.
you are right, I don't know Bickle's heart. May I add, neither do you. So what should we judge him on? How about his teachings? I have read his book, "Growing in the Prophetic" and found it to be filled with eroneous teachings. I have investigated the people he celebrates in that book, like Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, etc, and have found not their hearts, but the words of their mouths to be false. I cannot see their hearts, but I can read their words. And so, with love, I warn you, bewared Bickle, beware the KC prophets.
To go deeper, the harp and bowl theology that they promote is a unified system of end times beliefs. It is not just another way of worshiping. They believe certain things will happen if they do certain things. They do not get this info from the Bible but they get them from unverified prophesies.
To look at things with an even wider lense, we must not be fearful of speaking out against false teaching, even among fellow believers. Paul publicly confronted Peter to correct him theologically! I am not saying Bickle is not a Christian. I'm saying his teachings are tainted, whatch out!
I am subject to the same scrutiny and invite it. no man is above the Word of God.
I know of your great love for me, Sandy, and so I say all of these things to you with seriousness. May God lead.
Mike
Anon,
we live in a society where people doing things in other places access the flock up here in PA. Therefore, we must interact with these ideas. We cannot simply ignore them. Secondly, because someone is "Christian" does not act as a forcefield against all scrutiny.
Furthermore, you need to not make things so personal. Really, if you are going to participate in blogs, you need a thicker skin. I'm sorry that you are "saddened" by me. I hope you have a better day tomorrow.
While I work on a thicker skin maybe you should work on a softer heart and a more tame tongue. Since we are free to give criticism here.
Anon,
on that issue, I agree with you 100%! Thanks for that reminder and I do and will indeed seek to do that.
You are right, my tongue can be sharp. I don't mean for it to hurt. I know my calling regarding preaching and truth, and it requires me often to stand in the areas of disagreement. But to do so with grace to all who hear? That is so hard for me. But I am working on it.
Thanks for your suggestion on that, and I'd covet your prayers also.
Sandy, Several things you write I find interesting but the biggest one is where you stated, "I truly dislike apologetics." This I find odd for a believer to say. Given that apologetics is simply giving people answers and reasons to believe the gospel, I don't understand why a follower of Christ would "truly dislike" that. In fact, the Bible uses the word apologetics when refering to Paul witnessing in the book of Acts. Jesus, John, Luke, Peter, and Paul give us many examples to show that they were, in fact, apologists. Now obviously, I believe you are a believer so I'm not saying you're not but what you have written, but can you explain what you mean by that?
OK, just one more thing bugging me. Not to be a pest but, how is I Samuel 24:6 applicable here? I didn't see anywhere where Pastor Mike wanted to do physical harm to any of the IHOP gang. That is, of course, the context of this verse. You do realize it has nothing to do with testing someone's teachings by the Scriptures? Otherwise, as Mike already noted, Paul would have been in sin to question and rebuke Peter.
Please understand I'm not trying to be confrontational here but we all need to think these things through. I'm young but I've seen and experienced much of this in my 30 some years. I practically grew up in this stuff but I know the damage it can do to people.
One question after the video ended did the cool aid get passed out?
Oooooh no someone did NOT diss apologetics in front of Darin!
hehehe
You're funny Mandy. I'm not looking for a fight, just an explanation.
Actually, in response to a previous post by Mike, this is not The One conference put on by IHOP. It is actually The Call that was held on 7-7-07 in Nashville.
As stated on TheCall's website: TheCall is a divinely initiated multi-racial, multi-generational, and cross-denominational gathering to cooperate prayer and fasting. Believing that our nation is in desperate need of the mercy of God and a great Spiritual Awakening, TheCall mobilizes people from all across America to gather together to humbly petition Almighty God for undeserved mercy for our nation. Just as in the days of Joel, we believe that now is the time to blow the trumpet across our land, to fast, to pray, and return to the Lord with all our hearts.
This gathering isn’t about promoting any man or any ministry rather it is about bowing low before a merciful God and in the place of worship and prayer ministering before the Lord as priests. For the 12 hours of TheCall there will only be a corporate people with a unitary voice crying out to a loving God who desires to show mercy.
The 12 hours of TheCall are spent primarily before the Lord in the place of prayer and worship.
You can read more about it at their website, www.thecall.com
Although Mike Bickle is affiliated with TheCall, Lou Engle is actually the founder. The other "false prophets" as you call them, (Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones) are not leaders in this organization. Whether or not they participated in the event is a seperate matter and shouldn't influence someone as I'm sure there are always people in corporate worship settings that you do not agree with.
Also, the 300 who blew shofars was symbolic of Gideon's army in Judges 7. I don't think it had anything to do with shooting lasers into Heaven. Perhaps, he used a bad analogy trying to explain how loud 300 shofars was going to be, but that shouldn't take away from the purpose of TheCall and the event.
Thank you anon. I welcome the more precise information. Then I shall modify my comments this way.
For Becky, and all interested in IHOP, everything I said about Bickle and the false prophets remains the same.
As for the Call, I'm glad they want to pray. The laser thing is still strange, confusing, and I have great questions about it.
Now, I also wonder about a guy named Lou Engle. Thanks to Anonymous for warning me about him. I will look into who he is and see what I can find out.
peace.
Good. that didn't take long. Watch out for Lou Engle too. Nothing wrong with praying or asking people to pray. He is a senior leader of IHOP with Mike Bickle, and therefore, we can assume he is a baker of Paul Cain, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones and the other false prophets.
He is not only in on the IHOP movement, but is the founder of the JHOP movement. that's right. JHOP. It is like IHOP (only no pancakes).
I'm rather distressed as to how you are approaching this video. The man simply relays information from a scientist that the sound they're releasing with their shofars would be equivalent to light waves that would reach 25,000miles into space. If I can quote you, it's interesting at best, and an odd analogy at worst. I think you took this way overboard and in doing so, have begun causing strife and division, and where these things are the devil is also. You many want to stay away from provoking such things. Because the devil provokes, God leads.
Also, a pastor, should be encouraging, a leader is a bad one who is not able to encourage his flock and only criticizes others and shows a judgemental and critical spirit. The Bible is especially clear about judgement against other believers, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.
I appreciate your boldness. However, I just wish it was used in a more fruitful manner, such as preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ instead of tryign to cause division. I wasn't aware that criticizing others for no reason was producing good fruit.
That being said, I will be praying for you and your congregation.
Anon, thank you for your prayers. May God bless your life.
Anon, Excuse me! How dare you insinuate that my pastor is not an encourager. This man is a great encourager and a great pastor. I find it funny that you put him in league with the Devil but somehow in your mind, that's not being critical or discouraging?!?!?!?! Get a clue. You can't live by your own rules.
Also, if any man preaches the gospel, it's Mike. And finally, you are wrong. He should be causing division. Dividing true Christianity from the circus act that these people have turned our faith into. There are things worth taking a stand against and this, most definitely, is one of them.
Anon, something that bothers me is when "don't judge" is preached without limits or boundaries. Try reading 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
Causing division is never the right thing to do, I don't care in what little way you try to spin it.
And it's understandable that you would be upset if someone corrected your pastor. I would feel the same way.
Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to bring peace. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword; to divide a man from the members of his household."
Anon, let's face it --you don't mind division between you and me. In fact you promote.
Your maxim, "Thou shalt not divide" is a canard. The unity of the Bible never includes the overlooking of false teaching.
Thank you for correcting me, by the way. I'm sure there is no irony in that.
Darin, I'm not the same anon who you are responding to but I do find it intersting that you want your pastor to divide and discern for you against other spiritual leaders in the nation as long as no one does the same to him. Obviously, this anon feels that your pastor is saying or doing things that he feels are worth taking a stand against. I myself have questioned the purpose of this blog at times. As I believe another anon posted earlier that they felt this blog was negative and bringing division. If your pastor is going to criticize and judge other pastors publicly, what makes him safe from this judgement? Jesus said "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Surely, this anon is free to express his concern for the Church body the same as you are doing. I'm sure that the members of Lou Engle, Mike Bickler, and Rick Joyner's congregations would say that they are encouraging and speak the Word and yet YOU put them in the same category as the devil. What makes it different from one pastor to the next?
Jesus said, according to the Gospel of Luke, "How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Perhaps we should all take a step back from judging the way others lead worship, the theologies they believe, and the denomination they belong to and focus on reaching the lost. Paul said in Phillippians, "The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance."
No one is telling you not to discern spiritual matters, the Bible clearly tells us to "test the spirits" to see if they are Godly. But I think the concern of the anons on this page is that too much is being said to criticize and judge in public, especially about matters that we don't all understand or have personally experienced. Their concern is this may cause more division among the Church.
Just some thoughts. Take care.
To all the Anons,
Thanks for your participation. I want to make a couple things clear.
Yes, all of you are free to be critical of me. I am not insulted. In fact, your criticisms are evidence of your own thinking and add to the discussion (though not always as you have planned, I'm sure).
That said, I get the fact that we disagree. I can live with that. But pointing it out ad-nauseum is tedious. I know, I know, I know, you interpret what I have said here as critical of someone elses theology and worship and teaching and you think I am negative and divisive. I've got it.
I think you are wrong, at least as you present your arguments.
Now, the sides are clear. Is there any value to keep repeating ourselves?
I will continue to use this blog to deal with the state of the church in America and worldwide. If you are offended now, you will probably continue to be offended. If you want to keep telling me and the world how certain you are that I am divisive, negative (of the devil, or whatever else), I guess you can, but wouldn't it be easier if you just come up with one to three simple sentences and post that every time.
Something like, "I think you're negative and divisive. Praying for you. Good bye now."
Give that a go. For the rest of you, those brave enough to believe that testing the spirits might be part of thinking through these issues, please continue to be verbose. You are better at creating someting new and interesting to say.
peace to all.
mike the happy.
Tell you what, if division is "never the right thing to do" then why don't we apologize to the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and any other group of people claiming to be Christian and invite them to come on in and join with us. Let's no longer be concerned with "rightly interpreting the Word of truth" and just all join together as one big group of people who worship Jesus.
May I remind you of the following passage of Scripture:
“Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
Act 20:29 “I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30 “and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Did you see what it says in verse 30? "...from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things." Please help me understand, we are not supposed to be divisive, but yet, Paul makes it clear that these "wolves" will be in the church. Pray tell, how do we "protect the flock" if we do not divide truth from error?
Finally, again please note the duty of a pastor from Titus 1:9
"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."
Rebuke is a pretty strong word. Thank you pastor Mike for doing what Scripture commands you to do.
I am sure I am late too this, but here is my two sense.
I was told about this video and I said it sounded like idolatry. Now having seen it, I stand by my comment. Their adoration of the shofars coming in is proof enough. Their beliefs that it sends the beams 25,000 miles out and implying that God will then hear them, explains their misuse of the worship instrument. I guess they believe that God will not be able to hear them, otherwise. It seems that they think if they are long and loud, God will hear and act according to their prayers.
Matt. 6:7 But when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Ultimately, we can test their prophetic words about their act of worship. They claimed that "everything would change" for the nation and God's desires for the nation would happen when they did this.
Well, has this happened? What has changed? Everything?
Deut. 18:21-22 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
First of all - I'm not any of the previous Anons.
Second, my main thought here after seeing the video and reading the blogs - wasting WAY too much time doing so - is to wonder why you choose to spend your time tearing down something that may be honest praise to God (b/c you don't know their hearts). I understand and respect your desire to point out false teachers and wolves to your flock. I really do. But there will always be those in the world you won't always be around to point out who is and who isn't a deceiver. So maybe you should focus your time on teaching truth on your blog so that your flock can figure it out on their own when they encounter it.
You have suggested, albeit possibly sarcastically, that you agree you need to work on taming your tongue. Maybe you and others who have contributed to the comments need to stop and think before you click send and ask yourself if what you are saying is in love and in a loving manner. In other words, WWJD? :) This blog is all I have an opportunity to know of you and most of those who posted. To me it only gives me the impression of mean spirited-ness and self-righteousness. I have to believe that is not the impression you prefer strangers to have of you as your witness.
Just a suggestion...
As for this particular video, I found it very beautiful and moving when all the trumpets were blown. As one of the other posters mentioned, it reminded me of the Israelites marching around the walls of Jericho. It pointed me to a reminder of God's glory and power. If their praise was honest - and I believe that is God's judgment to make, not mine - I think that's pretty cool.
Anon,
I feel like your latest post is just saying the same things that have already been said. So, I won't respond. you get the last word.
Reading the tone in your response, I'm not sure you are listening though...or you just choose to put forth a negative witness...
Anonymous, for goodness sake, could you give me a break. If I defend my position, you don't hear, you call me names (mean-spirited, self-righteous). you won't give your name, but mine is on the line. You don't mind giving me advice but you don't think I have a right to speak out in public about what happens on youtube in the name of Christ.
It seems I will say nothing to please you. so I don't respond, and you don't like that response.
I say I will consider curbing my tongue and you don't believe me, you call it sarcastic. What do I have to do to please you?
We don't agree. I don't hate you. I don't even know who you are. You think I'm mean, self-righteous, not listening, etc, etc. What is it you expect me to say to those kinds of things?
Have a good day. Please.
Ok...so after reading through all of this I am troubled. I do not pretend to be some great biblical scholar but it doesn't take a master theologian to figure this out. First I will address the video. I did not watch it entirely as I didn't feel like sitting through several minutes of "noise." I did see the beginning and waited at the end for something other than said nosie to happen....nothing did. With that said, the interpretation of the event is left to the viewer. I saw nothing inherently wrong or masterfully spiritual about it. The comments about the shofar being used in the bible are true...big deal. It is the reason for its use that seem to be in question. Is it out of divine direction or for the purpose of, " Hey look what we can do!"
God knows the heart of every man, woman, and child and he can determine the rightousness of these acts. A "shepard" questioning them is merely that, a pastor doing what he feels led to do by Christ's direction. Take care of God's sheep.
Now for those who took the comments by Mike as insulting, search your heart for your reasons. Are you insecure about questions being raised? And the comments about being divisive. Christ was the most divisive person in the bible!! He rightously divided the church of the time. He questioned those in leadership, he relentlessly defended the truth to those in religious authority. He did not do it weakly, he bodly proclaimed the truth and he flat out told them they were wrong. That is why he was despised and rejected. We are obligated to find the truth and even more so obligated to shine the light on those who need exposed for false teachings.
With that said, some of you might say that is what you are doing. Questioning Mike to see if he is teaching the truth, to intepret for yourself his motive. Instead of attacking him as a person, take some time to pray for him, pray that he speaks for God, not for himself. What can be the harm in that......God bless all and may His truth be known.
Dan,
thanks for your comments. Not only because you were kind to me either (although I am encouraged).
Without question, the critics are partially correct. I need to constantly be examining my heart and tongue.
There are many internal wars going on within us at all times, aren't there? It is not just "flesh and spirit" and that's it. or maybe it is, but in different shapes.
Something rises us within me when I perceive falsehood within the church. I mean, it is strong. I feel a need not to lose my temper, but to stand up and fight. Yet, at the same time, another part within wonders how to do that with love and kindness. Another part wonders how to communicate well. Another part says, "Hey, just stay out of it, and no one can criticize you." Then another part says, this is what you were born for. and so on, and so on.
As I get older (not old, but older), it seems the time for cowardice and sitting things out needs to pass. Risks must be taken, and let God judge.
So, I really do appreciate the prayers of both friends and critics (who might also be friends!). If they really take time to pray, that is.
Well, I have to go now. I'm working on a machine that converts piano sounds to laser beams so I can shoot "how great though art"'s melody into the stratosphere.
Wow!
Love ya Pastor Mike : )
Emily
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