This is Rick Joyner, a self-proclaimed prophet. Read what he wrote below. Does anyone take someone like this seriously? Should we laugh? Cry?
"I then felt compelled to look at those who were sitting on the thrones we were passing. As I did, my gaze fell upon a man whom I knew was the apostle Paul. As I looked back at the Lord, He motioned for me to speak to him.
"'I have so looked forward to this' I said, feeling awkward but excited by this meeting. 'I know that you are aware of just how much your letters have guided the church, and they are probably still accomplishing more than all the rest of us put together. You are still one of the greatest lights on the earth.'
"'Thank you,' he said graciously. 'But you do not understand just how much we have looked forward to meeting you. You are a soldier in the last battle; you are the ones whom everyone here is waiting to meet. We only saw these days dimly through our limited prophetic vision, but you have been chosen to live in them. You are a soldier preparing for the last battle. You are the ones for whom we are all waiting.'
"Still feeling awkward, I continued, 'But there is no way that I can convey the appreciation that we feel for you, and all who helped to set our course with their lives and their writings. I also know that we will have an eternity for exchanging our appreciation, so please, while I am here, let me ask, 'What would you say to my generation that will help us in this battle?'
"'I can only say to you now what I have already said to you through my writings. I would have you to understand them better by knowing that I fell short of all that I was called to do,' Paul stated, looking me resolutely in the eyes.
"'But you are here, in one of the greatest thrones. You are still reaping more fruit for eternal life than any of us could ever hope to reap,' I protested.
"'By the grace of God I was able to finish my course, but I still did not walk in all that I was called to. I fell short of the highest purposes that I could have walked in. Everyone has. I know that some think that is blasphemy to think of me as anything less than the greatest example of Christian ministry, but I was being honest when I wrote near the end of my life that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not saying that I have been the greatest of sinners, but that I was the greatest of sinners then. I had been given so much to understand, and I walked in so little of it.'" (The Final Quest, Rick Joyner, Morning Star Publications, 1996, pp. 131-132.)
12 comments:
Whew. I can breathe a sigh of relief. "Imitate me as I imitate Christ" takes on a whole new meaning. It must mean... "not very well. not in true holiness..."
Off to the couch with a bag of chips to waste my life watching Jerry Springer and whatever else I like!
I will walk in so little of what I know!
Thanks Rick!
(Not!)
"Morning Star Publications"??
hmmm...
Oh. My. Goodness.
Cry, I think, for the deluded people who would rather believe this than God's word.
I always wonder, "Who is buying this stuff?" Those who want their ears tickled, I guess . . .
And--apparently--you :).
You know what, Mindy, there are many good Christians out there who fall into the trap of guys like this.
They are lured in by the desire to go deeper with Jesus and find out "the secret things" and be on the inside of the movement of God. They want to see the power of God at work in this world. That, in itself, is okay. but they miss the power of God in His word and lose the ability to discern good from evil, truth from falsehood, by putting their trust in man.
Pray for his sorry soul.
Perhaps it's the consequence of the ever deepening wedge between me and God, but I don't see anything other than writing of his wondering thoughts. Fictional story if you will. Or, is that the point - not so much what he said, rather the context of "truth" in which he presents it?
I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what is wrong with these words from this man. First of all, is this a vision, a dream, a story, what??? You need to clarify that. Secondly, is being more Christlike putting this man on display and making fun at something that was, I'm assuming, very personal to him? I'm sure we would all have trouble finding examples in Scripture where Christ did that to anyone. What, from this excerpt compels people to think that he cannot discern good from evil? I sense great humility in his words and believe Paul was sincere when he said he walked in so little of what was revealed to him. Wow, if anyone has figured out the key to walking a blameless spiritual journey, fully expressing all of the gifts of the Spirit with no fault, please share your secret with me? Because I know that I have not reached this place because I am still trying to die daily and am still living my life in the refiner's fire! Do I believe in living holy? Absolutely! 1 Peter 1:16, "Be holy, because I am holy." But it is a journey to reach that place... 1 Peter 2:2 "Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation"
1 Peter 3:8,"Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble."
Wow. Are the same anonymous who commented on my other post?
Let me say again, you are the perfect post-modern Christian. Truth is not the issue, but personal experience is, apparently.
However, I'll answer your question becuase you seem like a sincere person. The answer is going to be fact and truth based, though. I will not be relaying my personal emotional experiences. I pray that you take me seriously anyway.
You mentioned not understanding what was wrong with these words. Hmm. Where do we go with that? I had several other people who gave me personal feedback on this blog who gave this reaction, "that's amazing that anyone would dare say those kinds of things in public." So, I deduce that some Christians see the problems right away. But you don't. So. . . what is different? I'm not sure.
This is a prophetic vision, according to the author. Why should I "make fun" of, as you put it, "something very personal to him"?
Well, I think the whole responsibility of testing teachers comes in. Remember, my friend, this man is claims to be a prophet, a pastor, and a teacher. Therefore, he asks the people he shepherds to beleive him and act on what they hear. If it is so personal to him, why did he write it in a book and sell it to Christians?
let me point out, my post-modern friend, that "personal" is not an anticeptic that cleanses away falsehood. If such an unsubstatiated vision comes your way, you might want to evaluate it based soley on it's factual content, not it's personal nature. We don't want to be existentialists, now do we?
As for the content, if Paul, who said he finished the race truly said that he was such a failure, I'm going to need more verification than someone's strange and very personal vision. The same goes for the other content of the vision, including the astounding bit about how when in this heavenly vision Joyner found himself praised by Paul. Seems prophets in the Bible had more --shall we say -- "heavenly" focus when they had visions of heaven?
You see, my personal and sincerity-sensing friend, I am a pastor. The Lord's sheep in this church go to the book store. they buy Christian books. they read them. they might even change their life because of what those books say.
With that in mind, let me sum up this answer to you this way:
By the authority vested in me, by the Word of God and it's Author, I am responsible to take out my shepherds crook and point to false teachers and warn the sheep to stay away.
I send the same warning to you.
One other piece of advice: Stop being "offended" because someone said something contrary about another person, and start judging things rightly and wisely.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
So what is your view of the book of Revelation? How do you take John's vision of heaven??
Thank you for the warning, but I am cautious as to what shepherds I follow. I try to place my focus solely on Christ, and that is why I am "offended" when people act against his message of love. I understand your concern with sheep following a false teacher, that is why Christ is the only place to lean because the moment we place our faith on men/women we will always be let down!
Now, I am by no means saying that Jesus never drew the line in the sand, he most certainly did! He clearly did when the pharisees were proclaiming a false gospel, or when the Temple was being used as a marketplace for forgiveness.
I would still like to know what "unsubstantiated" facts are found in this vision. And by personal, I did not mean private, but something that the Spirit revealed to him. And if that is the case who am I to say the Spirit who, according to Acts 2 will be poured out and cause people to see visions, did not give him this vision. If his vision was against a truth and went against the gospel, then yes point it out. But I haven't seen that happen yet with this particular example???
I am just trying to understand, so please forgive my processing. Was it that Paul was encouraging him for he is fellow warrior in this spiritual battle? Encouraging him to continue to "pray in the spirit on all occasions" because we live in a time that the battle is still very real and we need men and women to stand up and fight, and not look dreadfully at an imaginated perfect Paul who we could never compare to? But instead to push on, run the race, seek holiness, perservere and rest in the peace, hope and joy that comes from the Holy Spirit. And take heart in knowing that our brothers everywhere, including Paul, suffered and are still suffering trials.
Thank you for your response and pushing me to evaluate my own understandings.
Okay. forgive me if I have been sarcastic in tone at all. I don't know if I've come across to coursely, but I find humor and sarcasm can, at times, save time. they say alot.
But it is not fair if I do not give more detail, as you have pointed out. So let me.
As to the vision of John in Revelation, I believe it to be true, beginning to end. Certainly, you are not implying that there is a comparison in quality of visions between John and Rick Joyner? John was an apostle. He is verified by his eye-witness status of knowing Jesus and by his many miracles when preaching the gospel. This is not a new idea but the biblical justification for the New TEstament canon. (Hebrews 1:1-4 and 2:1-3 are good summaries of this if my memory serves me well).
But Rick Joyner does not have such credentials. There is therefore no reason to believe that this is a vision from the Lord except that Rick Joyner said it was. This is not sufficient for believing that it is from the Holy Spirit. The Bible is taken as from God because of much more rigorous reasons.
As to what facts are unsubstantiated, the vision itself is. What substantiates as being from God? To say, "Well it is encouraging so it doesn't matter that it is substantiated" is a very utilitarian (and is it loaded to say at this point, "postmodern"?) approach to truth. But it is not a valid proof.
But the ring of the vision itself is suspect. Why? Many reasons. I'll be happy to list a few --but first let me point out that the burden of proof is on Joyner, not me. If he claims it is from God, he must substantiate it.
Here we go: Paul saying, "Thank you but you do not understand just how much we have looked forward to meeting you. You are a soldier in the last battle; you are the ones whom everyone here is waiting to meet."
Wow. that's flattering. How do we know that Rick Joyner is a soldier in the "last battle?" Because he said so? How do we know Paul was talking to him for real? Because he said so? Isn't Paul acting a little strangely, since he is praising a man in heaven instead of praising God? He seems more impressed with Rick Joyner because of when he lives than he does of all the other saints he is with? That doesn't strike you as self-serving for Rick?
Then this strange saying, "I fell short of all I was called to do." Do you really think, from what you read in the Bible, that describes Paul? Do we believe Rick Joyner that when Paul says, "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have won the race" that he was simply referring to making it to the end, and not to accomplishing what he was called to do?
let's go further. When people have visions in the Bible, what prices do they often pay? Isaiah saw heaven and was martyred after a ministry being not listened to. Paul saw heaven and was so prone to pride that God sent him "a messenger from satan, a thorn in the flesh" to keep him from sin. John was beaten, and tortured and jailed and died that way. Rick Joyner? He sells cd's and makes a darn good living, if I do say so.
Then there's this strange deal (quoting Joyner who is quoting Paul):
"I fell short of the highest purposes that I could have walked in. Everyone has. I know that some think that is blasphemy to think of me as anything less than the greatest example of Christian ministry, but I was being honest when I wrote near the end of my life that I was the greatest of sinners. I was not saying that I have been the greatest of sinners, but that I was the greatest of sinners then. I had been given so much to understand, and I walked in so little of it."
From this point on we are to believe that Paul fell short of his highest calling? this is news, isn't it? And then Paul says that he was the greatest of sinners as an explanation of how he failed in minsitry? That's is Paul doing poor exegesis of himself! clearly in the context of the scripture, Paul NOT referring to what Joyner says (his state of sin as an apostle) but of his state of sin at the time of his conversion! So Paul is actually in heaven telling Rick Joyner things that are unbiblical? Come on, man. You're better than that. Why would we take Joyner seriously at this point, and furthermore, how could we allow him to influence the flock of God we are under-shepherds of without giving due warning?
Peace
I read the "you" as meaning the generation of warriors who followed Paul's teaching, meaning all of us. That the heavens will rejoice when we all return home. So, no I do not take it as self-serving.
I believe we all fall short of doing what we are called to do. Did Paul complete the task before him? Yes...but in means of being perfect in loving his brother, he fell short as we all do. I think this vision may warn those who place Paul on a standard with Christ, while he is not. And he doesn't claim to be.
I think you are treading dangerous grounds deciding and leading others to say that this is not a vision from God. Are you saying in order for you to believe in someone's vision that it must come from a man who the world claims as an apostle, then is tortured for it?? I'm not saying you have to or should believe in this vision, I just mean that if it is not speaking against Christ's message, who are you to persuade others' perception of it?
As for the poor exegesis...I would turn to Phil. 3:12 where, just after sharing that he desires to know Christ in his resurrection, he states that he has not already attained it. This takes place after his conversion. Some may say, that because of his knowledge of Greek mythology, that he was meaning that he was still trapped in the evil flesh. I believe he knows that he has not reached perfection, he is still a sinner as long as he is on this earth, but each day he can strive and calls others to strive to know more of Christ and less of the world.
p.s. and I am a woman
Be ye male or female, you go along way to correct me while working very hard to justify a very strange vision. You mystify me.
Though I know you are not hearing this, one more time:
When Paul said that he was the chief of sinners he was not referring to his "not reaching perfection" --which is another text. Look at it for yourself:
1 Timothy 1:15-16 "15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. "
Now, and stick with me here: Paul is clearly saying in this text that he is a chief of sinners, referring clearly to his status as regards salvation --not to the completion of his mission.
Therefore, and here's the tricky part: in rick joyner's vision, Paul misinterprets this passage from the unchanging word of God when he says he was referring to falling short of his mission.
No, I am not saying that to have a vision you have to be an apostle. I am saying that believe that someone's vision is true, it must be verified some way --this is how we get our canon. This is not a new idea. It is as ancient as Christianity.
But, I can see that you cannot hear me, so we'd better go our own ways.
Enjoy your visions.
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