i realized the above comment will come across wrong - i am not better than the people in Kit., just have had different experiences. i am just referring to remarks made to us by Christian people here when we moved to FL - they wondered why we'd go down there where all the "n" lived - i was shocked and offended and maybe too naive...if innapropriate please don't publish
you know, Annette, heaven hates a coward, so we might as well publish.
We have to be willing to talk about such things. It has been my experience that racist ideas continue the most in areas that are more monochrome. Not counting rap music, I hardly heard the N word at all in NJ or SC. but I have heard it here in Western Pa several times. Why? not sure.
my guess is the fact that there is hardly anyone here who isn't full-blooded white, there is nothing to move some people's very static thinking.
of course, we can agree that Christians In Kittanning, in general, are not racist.
readers note: For those reading Annette's comments, she did not grow up in America, though she is an American native. Her parents were missionaries and she grew up "on the field" as they say.
I was ordained in a church by a black pastor. The church was 60% african American.
I have, since I have converted to Christ, worked hard to build bridges between all ethnic groups.
As for Christianity, a point Annette raised, it is no longer a majority white equation --at least not in the Evangelical world.
Christians in Africa far outnumber the evangelicals in America and Western Europe --as do the latinos of South America, and then there's Asia!
In China, there might be as many as 90 to 100 million evangelicals (hard to count as most of them are "illegal" in their faith and are underground in their congregations). One in three South Koreans is an Evangelical Christians. Filipinoes are largely Christian (although muslims are making in-roads, in large part by use of force).
in any case, the point is this: The skin color of Christianity is first yellow, then black and latinos and whites coming in next.
The issue is still as simple as ever. we are not to judge the value of a person based on color. it is the heart that matters. Any Christian who thinks otherwise is in sin.
Annette posted this comment. I edited it. She related some true personal things that might have been miscontrued:
this type of thinking is taught or "passed on"...I grew up unaware of the difference in skin color until someone with brown skin pointed out to me that I was not one of them. I think that when we get to heaven there are many white people (i shouldn't say this) who will be surprised/maybe uncomfortable that they are a minority (i know, new bodies, we won't be aware of that kind of thing) - after all the number of believers in Africa and China etc is rapidly growing. My children will know that God looks at the heart not the outward appearance or skin color or hair type or financial background. oh, this really gets to me...
Mike, that was unbelievable. What is going on here?! That little girl who said the white baby was good and the black baby was bad and then when she was asked about which baby was like her and she picked the black baby? Who is responsible for this? I think it can only be fixed one life at a time, one family at a time.
This was about black americans. What would it be like in the rest of the world?
Absolutely remarkable. If this is true, America is a ticking bomb.
I'm not sure if I agree with the reason you give for the racism in western PA. In Louisiana there were a lot of mixed-race folks, and a lot of close (physical) integration among the colors, but the racism was blatant in many cases.
I think the racist culture is self-perpetuating, in that those people will see an example of someone who acts or speaks in accordance with the stereotyped expectations, and that reinforces the view. Those instances that do not align with the sterotype are, for some reason, ignored. I think the reason is that changing one's view about a so deeply-held opinion is very personal and somewhat threatening, and it is just easier to ignore the evidence than to look inward and honestly evaluate your heart.
robosteve, I agree there is racism everywhere. but this line here that you said is the point I am making:
"I think the racist culture is self-perpetuating, in that those people will see an example of someone who acts or speaks in accordance with the stereotyped expectations, and that reinforces the view."
If you grow up in our neck of the woods, you don't get to see many black folks, so your stereotypes are only what you see on t.v., mostly. Whereas, if you move these people to say, South Carolina, where 1 third or more of their fellow students, or co-workers, or even neighbors are black, their opinions will change much faster.
Having lived in South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, California, Oregon, New Jersey, Philly area, Centre county pa, and now armstrong county, it has been my experience that people are generally more willing to make outright racist jokes and comments where the races mix the least. just an observation, though, and not science.
you are exactly right regarding the heart. that is where the war really is. I would just say, if people who hardly know a single black person knew many of the people I know, they would be less likely, probably, to maintain lifelong, culturally learned stereotypes.
I totally agree about the "if [they] knew many of the people I know...." I get personally offended when I hear the racist comments/jokes because I have many friends who are not white. It's as if they're commenting about me.
robosteve says,"I get personally offended when I hear the racist comments/jokes because I have many friends who are not white. It's as if they're commenting about me."
The general mentality of the african-american "race" frustrates me. "I don't know where I come from, Africa is all I know" and it upsets her? I know that I had a grandparent someplace down through the greats that came from Ireland, that's all I know, should I be furious at society as well? Resentment fueled by misguidance (see Rev Al or Jesse) seems to be a major wedge keeping blacks isolated. I've had the pleasure to see some of America's worst from coast to coast. While the black population is high in Cincinnati, for example, the amount of times someone attempted to rob me was pretty equal white to black. Stereotypes exist for a reason though. How about drunken indians? Sure, I've dealt with many, but it didn't stop me from buying them breakfast either. Now to stereotype entire races by my experiences would sure make life miserable. I would have to prejudge that most white men were on crack, most indians were drunk, most black men were going to rob you, and most women were prostitutes. Now, on the other hand, living a day to day basis where you dealt with the same group of people all the time, it would sway your mindset. How many of those little black kids in the video lived in inner city neighborhoods? Everyone around them is black, and there is a lot of crime, so a 4 year old interprets that since they don't see white people doing bad things that white people are nicer. Put that same black family here, and they'd see that there's society trash from every ethnic background.
Andy, yes, you made sense. We see through the lenses we see through.
thanks for your thoughts.
just a few to think about in response:
First, when whites don't have blacks and other minorities who are TRULY FRIENDS, they often will depend on stereotypes, as will blacks when considering whites. Yes, you know that being white doesn't make life a bed of roses and peachy keen, although some blacks might think so.
Likewise, being black doesn't mean ghetto to blacks. Yes, the media images and rap music and the concentration of blacks in many decayed neighborhoods in urban centers make it seem that way. But it is not that way.
Did you know that between 40% and 50% of blacks are in the middle-class? Compared to 60% of whites. That's very close.
Did you know that there are more whites on welfare than blacks? You might have known that because living in Rural America, you can often see it.
It is true that a disproportionate number of blacks to whites are convicted for violent crimes, and that is mostly urban. This is unfortunate, but it has reasons that are not race based. History is an unrelenting master. Having known some people who were born with 2 strikes against them (born in Compton, high crime, low family, no positive influences), I know that genetics is not the cause, although race, history, and culture have set the urban poor on a bad road to begin with.
A couple of other thoughts to keep in mind.
A white person, part of the dominant culture, rarely has to consider his race an issue to succeed in most arenas. In other words, a white man, especially say, in PA, can go to school, university, work, and neighborhood, and rarely has to interact with any sub-cultures. In other words, he can be white, and hang out in a white culture. The amount he needs to interact with blacks, puerto-ricans, asians, etc is low. This makes him less race conscious.
But a black man, in order to be a success in America, must almost always be crossing into the white dominant culture. He must learn to deal with whites and their ways in order to succeed. Do you see the difference? The white says, "Hey, what does race matter? I don't hate anyone." the black says, "Even around people who aren't racist, I'm from a different culture, and race is always a factor."
as for knowing their heritage, you are right, that many whites don't know anything about where they come from. However, whites also have less reason to wonder. They are part of the dominant culture. and, theoretically, if they wanted to, they could trace it. their ancestors were people of record, having birth cirtificates, marriage liscences, marked graves, etc, that can be traced, in most cases all the way back to the nation of origin. there are exceptions, but the public record is generally in their favor. To be black in America, unless you are recent immigrant, means you have no idea where you came from and couldn't find out if you wanted to. The trail dead ends at your grandparents' master, if you can get it that far. Africa is not a nation, it is a large continent full of nations. I know that I am german, italian, mexican, and something englishy. I could do research and learn much more. I could learn about the cultures I came from. I can know my heritage.
IF someone said, "Well, you're either from Eastern Europe, Western Europe or one of the Viking kind of places, and there's no way of knowing because your name is not clue. there was a generation when your name was erased and you were given a slave name and no origin." Then I might feel it kind of odd. If I was part of a subculture, forced for success to interact with a dominant culture, I might feel a little bad about it. Especially if when I looked in the history books, no one was my color in my country, except slaves.
The politics of race don't help either. to view race through the prism of politics is to view all blacks as liberals and therefore shills for Al Sharpton. It isn't so. there are reasons why blacks vote in the majority democrat. But, did you know that most blacks are pro-life, pro-heterosexual marriage, and pro-school choice? All very socially conservative positions. Then why not switch parties, you might ask? That question is historical and cultural. Ask this, "Why don't you trust the other guys?" There are answers to these questions, but whites rarely care to look for them. Why? not because whites are evil. But because they don't have to. Interacting with the black sub-culture is a choice for most whites, not a necessity, so they just don't.
15 comments:
and yes, I would agree, it is harder to be the minority - as believers we often are, but we are called to rise above
i realized the above comment will come across wrong - i am not better than the people in Kit., just have had different experiences. i am just referring to remarks made to us by Christian people here when we moved to FL - they wondered why we'd go down there where all the "n" lived - i was shocked and offended and maybe too naive...if innapropriate please don't publish
you know, Annette, heaven hates a coward, so we might as well publish.
We have to be willing to talk about such things. It has been my experience that racist ideas continue the most in areas that are more monochrome. Not counting rap music, I hardly heard the N word at all in NJ or SC. but I have heard it here in Western Pa several times. Why? not sure.
my guess is the fact that there is hardly anyone here who isn't full-blooded white, there is nothing to move some people's very static thinking.
of course, we can agree that Christians In Kittanning, in general, are not racist.
readers note: For those reading Annette's comments, she did not grow up in America, though she is an American native. Her parents were missionaries and she grew up "on the field" as they say.
Other things on race:
I was ordained in a church by a black pastor. The church was 60% african American.
I have, since I have converted to Christ, worked hard to build bridges between all ethnic groups.
As for Christianity, a point Annette raised, it is no longer a majority white equation --at least not in the Evangelical world.
Christians in Africa far outnumber the evangelicals in America and Western Europe --as do the latinos of South America, and then there's Asia!
In China, there might be as many as 90 to 100 million evangelicals (hard to count as most of them are "illegal" in their faith and are underground in their congregations). One in three South Koreans is an Evangelical Christians. Filipinoes are largely Christian (although muslims are making in-roads, in large part by use of force).
in any case, the point is this: The skin color of Christianity is first yellow, then black and latinos and whites coming in next.
The issue is still as simple as ever. we are not to judge the value of a person based on color. it is the heart that matters. Any Christian who thinks otherwise is in sin.
Annette posted this comment. I edited it. She related some true personal things that might have been miscontrued:
this type of thinking is taught or "passed on"...I grew up unaware of the difference in skin color until someone with brown skin pointed out to me that I was not one of them. I think that when we get to heaven there are many white people (i shouldn't say this) who will be surprised/maybe uncomfortable that they are a minority (i know, new bodies, we won't be aware of that kind of thing) - after all the number of believers in Africa and China etc is rapidly growing. My children will know that God looks at the heart not the outward appearance or skin color or hair type or financial background. oh, this really gets to me...
thanks, that is better... i'm done now and need to feed my hungry children :)
Mike, that was unbelievable. What is going on here?! That little girl who said the white baby was good and the black baby was bad and then when she was asked about which baby was like her and she picked the black baby? Who is responsible for this? I think it can only be fixed one life at a time, one family at a time.
This was about black americans. What would it be like in the rest of the world?
Absolutely remarkable. If this is true, America is a ticking bomb.
I'm not sure if I agree with the reason you give for the racism in western PA. In Louisiana there were a lot of mixed-race folks, and a lot of close (physical) integration among the colors, but the racism was blatant in many cases.
I think the racist culture is self-perpetuating, in that those people will see an example of someone who acts or speaks in accordance with the stereotyped expectations, and that reinforces the view. Those instances that do not align with the sterotype are, for some reason, ignored. I think the reason is that changing one's view about a so deeply-held opinion is very personal and somewhat threatening, and it is just easier to ignore the evidence than to look inward and honestly evaluate your heart.
Kind of like accepting Christ, huh?
robosteve, I agree there is racism everywhere. but this line here that you said is the point I am making:
"I think the racist culture is self-perpetuating, in that those people will see an example of someone who acts or speaks in accordance with the stereotyped expectations, and that reinforces the view."
If you grow up in our neck of the woods, you don't get to see many black folks, so your stereotypes are only what you see on t.v., mostly. Whereas, if you move these people to say, South Carolina, where 1 third or more of their fellow students, or co-workers, or even neighbors are black, their opinions will change much faster.
Having lived in South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, California, Oregon, New Jersey, Philly area, Centre county pa, and now armstrong county, it has been my experience that people are generally more willing to make outright racist jokes and comments where the races mix the least. just an observation, though, and not science.
you are exactly right regarding the heart. that is where the war really is. I would just say, if people who hardly know a single black person knew many of the people I know, they would be less likely, probably, to maintain lifelong, culturally learned stereotypes.
Mike,
I totally agree about the "if [they] knew many of the people I know...." I get personally offended when I hear the racist comments/jokes because I have many friends who are not white. It's as if they're commenting about me.
robosteve says,"I get personally offended when I hear the racist comments/jokes because I have many friends who are not white. It's as if they're commenting about me."
Amen to that, brother. I'm right there with you!
The general mentality of the african-american "race" frustrates me. "I don't know where I come from, Africa is all I know" and it upsets her? I know that I had a grandparent someplace down through the greats that came from Ireland, that's all I know, should I be furious at society as well? Resentment fueled by misguidance (see Rev Al or Jesse) seems to be a major wedge keeping blacks isolated. I've had the pleasure to see some of America's worst from coast to coast. While the black population is high in Cincinnati, for example, the amount of times someone attempted to rob me was pretty equal white to black. Stereotypes exist for a reason though. How about drunken indians? Sure, I've dealt with many, but it didn't stop me from buying them breakfast either.
Now to stereotype entire races by my experiences would sure make life miserable. I would have to prejudge that most white men were on crack, most indians were drunk, most black men were going to rob you, and most women were prostitutes.
Now, on the other hand, living a day to day basis where you dealt with the same group of people all the time, it would sway your mindset. How many of those little black kids in the video lived in inner city neighborhoods? Everyone around them is black, and there is a lot of crime, so a 4 year old interprets that since they don't see white people doing bad things that white people are nicer. Put that same black family here, and they'd see that there's society trash from every ethnic background.
Hope that made sense.
Andy, yes, you made sense. We see through the lenses we see through.
thanks for your thoughts.
just a few to think about in response:
First, when whites don't have blacks and other minorities who are TRULY FRIENDS, they often will depend on stereotypes, as will blacks when considering whites. Yes, you know that being white doesn't make life a bed of roses and peachy keen, although some blacks might think so.
Likewise, being black doesn't mean ghetto to blacks. Yes, the media images and rap music and the concentration of blacks in many decayed neighborhoods in urban centers make it seem that way. But it is not that way.
Did you know that between 40% and 50% of blacks are in the middle-class? Compared to 60% of whites. That's very close.
Did you know that there are more whites on welfare than blacks? You might have known that because living in Rural America, you can often see it.
It is true that a disproportionate number of blacks to whites are convicted for violent crimes, and that is mostly urban. This is unfortunate, but it has reasons that are not race based. History is an unrelenting master. Having known some people who were born with 2 strikes against them (born in Compton, high crime, low family, no positive influences), I know that genetics is not the cause, although race, history, and culture have set the urban poor on a bad road to begin with.
A couple of other thoughts to keep in mind.
A white person, part of the dominant culture, rarely has to consider his race an issue to succeed in most arenas. In other words, a white man, especially say, in PA, can go to school, university, work, and neighborhood, and rarely has to interact with any sub-cultures. In other words, he can be white, and hang out in a white culture. The amount he needs to interact with blacks, puerto-ricans, asians, etc is low. This makes him less race conscious.
But a black man, in order to be a success in America, must almost always be crossing into the white dominant culture. He must learn to deal with whites and their ways in order to succeed. Do you see the difference? The white says, "Hey, what does race matter? I don't hate anyone." the black says, "Even around people who aren't racist, I'm from a different culture, and race is always a factor."
as for knowing their heritage, you are right, that many whites don't know anything about where they come from. However, whites also have less reason to wonder. They are part of the dominant culture. and, theoretically, if they wanted to, they could trace it. their ancestors were people of record, having birth cirtificates, marriage liscences, marked graves, etc, that can be traced, in most cases all the way back to the nation of origin. there are exceptions, but the public record is generally in their favor. To be black in America, unless you are recent immigrant, means you have no idea where you came from and couldn't find out if you wanted to. The trail dead ends at your grandparents' master, if you can get it that far. Africa is not a nation, it is a large continent full of nations. I know that I am german, italian, mexican, and something englishy. I could do research and learn much more. I could learn about the cultures I came from. I can know my heritage.
IF someone said, "Well, you're either from Eastern Europe, Western Europe or one of the Viking kind of places, and there's no way of knowing because your name is not clue. there was a generation when your name was erased and you were given a slave name and no origin." Then I might feel it kind of odd. If I was part of a subculture, forced for success to interact with a dominant culture, I might feel a little bad about it. Especially if when I looked in the history books, no one was my color in my country, except slaves.
The politics of race don't help either. to view race through the prism of politics is to view all blacks as liberals and therefore shills for Al Sharpton. It isn't so. there are reasons why blacks vote in the majority democrat. But, did you know that most blacks are pro-life, pro-heterosexual marriage, and pro-school choice? All very socially conservative positions. Then why not switch parties, you might ask? That question is historical and cultural. Ask this, "Why don't you trust the other guys?" There are answers to these questions, but whites rarely care to look for them. Why? not because whites are evil. But because they don't have to. Interacting with the black sub-culture is a choice for most whites, not a necessity, so they just don't.
well, that's enough to think about for now.
peace.
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